Preview
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
EXHIBIT B
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021
information on the customer's ability to negotiate fees, and a telephone
number of contact information. So it's just -- it's just another
regulation that's being put on these small banks. And just also to say,
not for nothing, that the Federal regulations already require this type of
notification. And for those reasons, the Independent Bankers
Association, the New York Credit Union Association oppose it,
basically saying that the existing Federal law already requires
consumers to be given notice of overdraft fees. This bill would be an
unnecessary burden, with which Federal financial institutions would
not need to comply. Therefore, I'm voting in the negative and I would
encourage my colleagues to do the same. Thank you.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: Thank you.
Are there any other votes? Announce the results.
(The Clerk announced the results.)
The bill is passed.
Page 14, Rules Report No. 513, the Clerk will read.
THE CLERK: Assembly No. A07761-A, Rules
Report No. 513, Abinanti, Galef. An act to amend the Election Law,
in relation to write-in ballots.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: On a motion by Mr.
Abinanti, the Senate bill is before the House. The Senate bill is
advanced.
(Pause)
Mr. Norris.
MR. NORRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the
102
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021
sponsor yield for a couple questions?
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: Mr. Abinanti, will
you yield?
MR. ABINANTI: Yes, Mr. Speaker, gladly.
MR. NORRIS: Mr. Abinanti, what is the purpose of
this bill?
MR. ABINANTI: The purpose of this bill is to give
the party the right to control its own party line.
MR. NORRIS: Thank you. Can you explain the
opportunity to ballot process and what you're trying to curtail under
the current law?
MR. ABINANTI: I'm sorry, could you speak into the
microphone?
MR. NORRIS: Can you please explain the
opportunity to ballot process as it is right now and how you're trying
to curtail the current language?
MR. ABINANTI: Under the existing law, party
members can circulate a petition and request that the Board of
Elections conduct a primary election in a particular party with no
names on the ballot.
MR. NORRIS: So they could write in. So
individuals will sign an OTB petition, members of the party saying, I
would like an opportunity to write in a candidate; would that be
correct?
MR. ABINANTI: That is correct.
103
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021
MR. NORRIS: Under the current law, does it have to
be a member of the party who they -- they vote for?
MR. ABINANTI: Under the current law, it does not
have to be. I think if you talk to one of your colleagues from
Rockland County when he was running for reelection, he found that he
was in the middle of a -- a primary from one of the minor lines and
almost lost that line because somebody in a different party tried to -- to
enter into that opportunity to ballot and take that line away from him.
MR. NORRIS: So if the members of the party within
a jurisdiction gather signatures for a write-in ballot, and then they go
to the polls and they would write in a candidate of another party, under
your proposed legislation, that would disqualify those votes of people
who were actually casting ballots for an individual?
MR. ABINANTI: That would be consistent with the
present law in which we allow the party to determine which candidates
can run on their line. At the present time, the -- the party chairs are
allowed to authorize a candidate who is in a different political party to
run on their line. This concept of allowing somebody from a totally
different third party to be written in is an aberration of our Election
Law.
MR. NORRIS: Two parts of that. So right now
someone can receive an authorization if they're not a member of the
party by the party leadership, members of that party --
MR. ABINANTI: Correct.
MR. NORRIS: Okay. Now, if party members in a
104
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021
particular jurisdiction circulate an OTB petition, they go to the ballot,
to the election booth, they write in somebody who is not a member of
their party, exercising their freedom of political association, and that
candidate wins the write-in. Under your language, those party
members will not be able to select the candidate of their choosing?
MR. ABINANTI: This provision would say that for
a person to win a primary without a Wilson Pakula, without the
permission of the party leadership, they have to be a member of that
political party.
MR. NORRIS: So -- so --
MR. ABINANTI: The concept behind this is that
people who are -- who are representing a party in an election, in a
general election, should be -- should have a philosophy consistent with
the party they're representing. That's particularly important in a time
when we've just raised the -- the burdens to become a political party.
So we're giving -- what we're doing here is empowering the leadership
of political parties who are doing the work to make that a political
party and to keep it as a political party.
MR. NORRIS: So Tom, we're -- Mr. Abinanti --
MR. ABINANTI: Sure. Tom is fine.
MR. NORRIS: So we're in voting party leadership,
but we're not in voting the people who are members of that party who
live in the jurisdiction. So it's okay for a party chairman and executive
committees to say, Oh, we're going to authorize the Republican or the
Democrat, that's fine if it's a minor party, a primary. But if the voters
105
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021
of that district who enrolled in that party, are members of that party,
vote for a candidate who is not a member of their party, they're
disqualified?
MR. ABINANTI: Well, we are -- it's consistent with
Election Law Section 16-110. If you take a look there, the chairman
of a county committee of any party can challenge the registration of a
voter in that party if they are not sympathetic with the party principles.
So the concept is, is to keep the party for people who are sympathetic
with it. If it's -- if it's a party that -- that is -- that is pro-business and
then a very popular candidate, who is, let's say, pro-labor and
anti-business, let's take the extremes, okay, but very popular in that
community, then gets written in, in that now you have a pro-business
party being represented by an anti-business candidate and that could
cost that -- let me just finish -- that could cost that party the party line
in November because they don't get the one hundred and -- what is it,
150,000 votes that you need now.
MR. NORRIS: But, Mr. Abinanti, the people who
are voting in that election would be members of that party. They
signed a voter registration form by their freedom of their political
association to be a member of that party, and then they go to the
voting booth and their write-in for individual who may not be of that
political party and they win, they get enough votes, a candidate wins
who is not a member of their party; yet, the people who voted are
members of that party and that jurisdiction, they're not going to be able
to be on the line after the people in that district voted for them?
106
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021
MR. ABINANTI: Well, this will also prevent the
circumstances where you have uncontested elections by candidates
who are seeking all of the lines and maybe popular among a small
group of people who enroll in the party specifically for the purposes of
that primary. We know that in many places, whether it's New York
City or Upstate, the primary turnout for smaller districts is -- is -- is
miniscule, and it's possible for a few people to register and then take
over that party and are not really members of that party. That's why
we have this --
MR. NORRIS: But they are members of that party.
The checked their voter registration card and they signed it and they
said, I'm a member of - I'll use an example, the Conservative Party, I
can say the Working Families Party, whatever - I'm a member of that
party, I want to do an opportunity to ballot to write in for a
Republican, for a Democrat, for someone who is a different party, and
they get enough votes, that non-party member, to receive their line,
like some of us receive authorizations, I receive the authorization often
for the Conservative line to be on the Conservative line. Other
members of this Body receive authorizations to be on a particular line,
but the voters in that jurisdiction say, I want this candidate to be on
the ballot in the general election, they're going to be disqualified?
MR. ABINANTI: The purpose of this is to keep the
party in the control of those people who have been working really hard
to make it a party, and it's -- it's a valuable line these days, whichever
minor party you're talking about, and the party chairs have the
107
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021
responsibility to run the party and put candidates up who are
consistent with the philosophy of the party. They spend a lot of time
interviewing candidates. They spend a lot of time getting them on the
ballot with petitions --
MR. NORRIS: Oh I know, I was a party chair.
MR. ABINANTI: -- and we're finding more and
more people are changing parties for the purposes of sabotaging the
other -- the other political party.
MR. NORRIS: You know, I find it very ironic
though that the executive committee or a county chairman of a
committee can say, Oh, we want to bless this particular person, put
you on the ballot if you're not a member of our party, the leadership of
the party can do that, but then what voters of the jurisdiction go in and
do a write-in petition and exercise their freedom of political
association and then exercise their First Amendment right to vote and
they vote for a candidate who is not a member of that political party,
and that person wins, the (inaudible) is going to say, No, no. You can't
have that line after you win the election and the voters of that district
who are members of that party by their political association say, I want
this candidate who might not be a member of my party, we say it's not
okay because the party leadership did not bless it, because there might
be disputes within party leadership all around the -- the State. It could
be everywhere, in both parties, in all parties. But the people of that
district should have an opportunity to exercise their Constitutional
right and say, We want to select our own candidate. And that's my
108
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021
point because I don't think it's fair to people who actually sign the
petition -- first of all, they register to vote in that party. They sign the
form. Then they sign the petition and they say, I want to have a
write-in -- opportunity to write in the candidate of my choosing, and
then they actually vote for him, the candidate gets the most votes but
because they're not a member of the party, they can't be on the line of
the general election. I don't think that's fair, I don't think it's
Constitutional, and I have got serious concerns about it. But if you
want to address anything, I'm sure --
MR. ABINANTI: I think we have a different point of
view here. I think we have a different philosophy. As -- as I said
before, given the fact that we've made it very difficult to establish a
political party and it now takes a lot of work by some -- by some
people, whichever -- wherever they are in the political spectrum, and it
takes a lot of work to maintain that party. They have to have 150,000
signatures I believe the number is now, and it's really not fair to them
or the people who've worked for that party to find that someone comes
along with a surprise and sabotages their efforts by putting up a
candidate who cannot win on that line.
MR. NORRIS: But, Mr. Abinanti, I don't understand
--
MR. ABINANTI: And so the end result is all of their
work has been sabotaged --
MR. NORRIS: I don't understand the word
sabotaged.
109
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021
MR. ABINANTI: -- and there's no real contest in
November because that party candidate is not real.
MR. NORRIS: I don't understand the word sabotage.
These people have chosen to be in this party, then they circulate a
petition, or someone does, at least the sign the petition saying -- or
members of the party to qualify to have an opportunity to ballot, then
they go vote as a member of that party, for someone who may not be
of the party like we authorize all the time for people to be in other
parties. And then they win, but the State Legislature says, No, we
can't -- can't let you have the ballot.
MR. ABINANTI: But -- but -- but let me make
another point on this. The party members choose the leadership and
they empower that leadership to give the authorization to candidates to
run. Whether they're candidates who are members of the party, or
whether they're candidates who are in a different political party but
whose philosophy is consistent with the political party that we're
talking about. And what we're doing here is consistent with the
Election Law. As I said, Section 16-110, subdivision 2, already
empowers the county committee to question the enrollment of
members in a political party, and this is just consistent with what
appears to be an aberration. It allows the -- it's consistent with this
and saying that party chairs can choose candidates other than party
members.
MR. NORRIS: Yes. You know what --
MR. ABINANTI: Look, if party members are upset
110
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021
with a candidate that their party leadership has chosen, they can get a
party membership to -- to -- a party member to run in the primary
without any question.
MR. NORRIS: I -- I understand your point about the
party chairman and executive committee having the authorization
ability. I was a county chairman. But I also understand the people
who live in that district who has potential disagreements with their
leadership. You know, you elect a --
MR. ABINANTI: Well, then they should change the
leadership if there's disagreements with the leadership.
MR. NORRIS: If you -- if you -- if you elect a
chairman of a county, and some of them are very big, right, and you
represent a little town, a smaller town in a particular area, and you
didn't even vote for that chairman and they don't authorize your slated
candidates. At least the people of that party and that jurisdiction
should have the opportunity to be heard and have an opportunity to
select the candidate who may not be a member of their party. Just like
the party chairman said, Oh, it's okay for you if you're not a member of
the party to be on there.
So Mr. Abinanti, we're going to disagree on this. Let
me just go on the bill. I know it's going to be a long day here in the
Chamber.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: On the bill, sir.
MR. NORRIS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.
I want to thank the sponsor for a very spirited debate. I think debate is
111
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021
always very good. And what I have a very serious concern about are
the Constitutional ramifications for this. There is a potential violation
of the Constitutional rights of political association, of individuals who
choose to be in a political party and then sign a petition and then go
and vote and then a candidate may not -- may win who is not a
member of their party, but they're not going to be allowed to be on the
ballot after the voters in that district who are enrolled in that party
said, I want candidate X to be on that petition, or to be on that ballot.
And I just think that is trampling on our Constitutional rights, our
freedom of speech, our freedom of political association, and I do hope
one day if this is ever challenged in court that they'll pull the
legislative history and pull the discussion of this bill right now and
please examine it very carefully. Because it's okay for a party
chairman or a party executive committee, and as I said, I was one, to
give a blessing, but it's not okay for the members who live within a
particular jurisdiction to do the same. It's not fair. It's against the
Equal Protection Clause in my opinion, it's also against the association
of political speech. Thank you very much, and I will be in the
negative and I encourage all my colleagues to do the same. Thank
you.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: Thank you, sir.
Mr. Lawler.
MR. LAWLER: Thank you. Will the sponsor yield?
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: Mr. Abinanti, will
you yield?
112
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021
MR. ABINANTI: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would yield.
MR. LAWLER: Thank you, sir. Are there any
requirements when a voter chooses to register with a political party?
Do they have to meet any standard to register with the political party?
Do they have to subscribe to certain philosophies or policy positions,
or can they just choose on their own to identify with a political party?
MR. ABINANTI: They can choose on their own to
identify with a party, but that's why the party itself has the opportunity
to challenge the enrollment of voters. I mean, there was a lawsuit in
Westchester County not long ago dealing with the Independence
Party -- I'm sorry, with the Reform Party, where a whole group of
voters from one established political party decided to change their --
their party enrollments and go to the other party for the purposes of
taking over that party.
MR. LAWLER: Mm-hmm.
MR. ABINANTI: And the court threw out a lot of
those enrolled voters and said they were not consistent with the -- the
philosophy of that party and were doing it solely for the purpose of
raiding that party.
MR. LAWLER: So -- okay. So for instance, do you
think the Democratic Party should be able to throw out Democratic
Socialists of America out of the Democratic Party?
MR. ABINANTI: I'm not going to get involved in
which -- which wheel of the party we like and don't like, and I believe
that if people are subscribed to the general principles of the
113
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021
Democratic Party, they're welcome in the Democratic Party.
MR. LAWLER: So you like -- you like a big tent
approach.
MR. ABINANTI: We like a big tent approach.
MR. LAWLER: So you don't have to subscribe to a
specific philosophy, correct?
MR. ABINANTI: That would be my -- my feeling,
but we --
MR. LAWLER: Okay.
MR. ABINANTI: -- also want to make sure that
people are Democrats and believe in the general principles of the
Democratic Party.
MR. LAWLER: Okay. I'll leave that there, because
that could go very -- very far off course. Do you believe that a party
boss should have more say over who the candidate and, ultimately, the
elected official is than the voters of that party and/or district?
MR. ABINANTI: I don't think that a -- a -- a party
leader has more say because a party leader is elected by the people
who are involved in that party and live locally. And so they empower
the power leader --
MR. LAWLER: Mr. Abinanti.
MR. ABINANTI: -- to issue what we call a Wilson
Pakula to allow candidates to --
MR. LAWLER: Mr. Abinanti, does -- do -- do the
voters of a specific subset get to choose the party boss, or is it chosen
114
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021
by the committee members of a specific subset?
MR. ABINANTI: Well, the committee members are
elected from their own election districts, so they are representatives
and then they elect the next line of -- of leaders --
MR. LAWLER: Do the rank and file voters vote for
a political party boss?
MR. ABINANTI: They vote for their own
representative, just like we have here. Our voters don't get to vote
who is Speaker of the Assembly, they get to vote for us and then we
choose who is Speaker.
MR. LAWLER: And yet the Speaker dictates the
rules, right.
MR. ABINANTI: The Speaker, in connection with
the rest of the Caucus.
MR. LAWLER: So your -- your belief -- your belief
is that the party boss should dictate the process and the rules and who
the candidate is rather than the voters and the people.
MR. ABINANTI: Well, you're assuming that the
party rules allow one person to make the determination. My
understanding of the way the four major political parties now work is
that there are rules that are set up established by the conferences or
conventions and that allows --
MR. LAWLER: Each party has their own rules.
MR. ABINANTI: Correct.
MR. LAWLER: I'm not interested in litigating their
115
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021
rules.
MR. ABINANTI: But they usually allow and require
a -- a determination by an executive committee.
MR. LAWLER: Great. Here's -- here's a question.
On the Wilson Pakula, generally speaking, is it the county chair and/or
the State chair in these minor parties who make the Wilson Pakula
authorizations?
MR. ABINANTI: Well, I can only speak to the
Democratic party and in the Democratic party, it's the local committee.
So it would be the town committee or a village committee --
MR. LAWLER: Right.
MR. ABINANTI: -- that's -- that's quite local.
MR. LAWLER: But this is really focused on minor
parties, it's not really focused on the major political parties. So do the
minor parties, is it the county chair and the State chair generally who
are issuing the Wilson Pakula?
MR. ABINANTI: I -- I'm not familiar enough with
the -- well, first of all, which ones are you considering minor parties?
MR. LAWLER: Well, there's only -- there's only
four parties left, so the Working Families and the Conservative Party.
MR. ABINANTI: I -- in my mind there's only one
major party, but that's another... at any rate. The -- I'm not familiar
with the rules of the other three parties other than the Democratic
Party.
MR. LAWLER: And yet, you're trying to legislate on
116
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021
it, so that's interesting.
MR. ABINANTI: No, we're just trying to -- we're
just trying to continue what the Election Law already provides for.
MR. LAWLER: Okay. So the county chair and/or
the State chair generally controls the Wilson Pakula for both the
Working Families and the Conservative Party, we can agree upon that.
MR. ABINANTI: I'll take your word for it, I don't
know for sure.
MR. LAWLER: The bottom line -- the bottom line is
your belief under this bill is that the county chair and/or the State chair
should have total say over what goes on in a district, whether it's an
Assembly district or a local town district, that's -- that's your belief,
that's what this bill will do.
MR. ABINANTI: Let me just go back to my own
history. I remember when I ran for the State Senate many years ago
against an incumbent Senator, we literally had conventions of
hundreds of people to determine which one of us would get the
Wilson Pakula from the Green Party, and also from the Independence
Party. So in that case --
MR. LAWLER: Who -- who got it?
MR. ABINANTI: Well, since Yonkers put its votes
after Greenburgh did, Nick Spano got the endorsement.
MR. LAWLER: Okay. And did you try to do an
OTB?
MR. ABINANTI: We did not.
117
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021
MR. LAWLER: Okay. Do we have a closed primary
system in New York State?
MR. ABINANTI: I'm not sure -- familiar with the
term closed primary.
MR. LAWLER: Closed primary meaning you have
to be a registered member of that party to vote in that primary. In
other words, as a Republican I can't vote in the Democratic primary,
correct?
MR. ABINANTI: That is correct.
MR. LAWLER: Okay.
MR. ABINANTI: Unless you change your party and
we have eliminated all of the --
MR. LAWLER: Yeah, I'm not talking about change
of enrollment --
MR. ABINANTI: Now you change it to --
MR. LAWLER: -- I'm specifically talking about if
you are a member of a different party, you cannot vote in another
party's primary.
MR. ABINANTI: If you are enrolled in a political
party by a certain date, then you can vote in the primary.
MR. LAWLER: We're not talking about changing,
Tom, I'm talking specifically about if you are in a party. So if a -- if
there's a primary and the voters within that political party circulate a
petition to allow for an opportunity to ballot because they don't like
the candidate that the party boss chose, okay, and they circulate their
118
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021
petition and they write in a candidate, why is it that the party boss can
pick somebody who is not a registered member of that party to run on
that line, but the voters of that party cannot pick somebody who is not
a registered member of that party to run on that line? Why -- why are
you putting so much faith and trust in the party boss over the voters
who have all chosen to be a registered member of that party, whether
you like their rationale or not, whether you think they subscribe to the
philosophy that you think is appropriate for that party or not, why are
you putting more faith in the party boss than the voters?
MR. ABINANTI: Because the members of that party
have agreed to the party rules which empower their leadership.
MR. LAWLER: No they haven't.
MR. ABINANTI: Well, allow me to finish.
MR. LAWLER: -- no they haven't.
MR. ABINANTI: Allow me to finish. There are --
there are party rules in place that have to be filed with the Board of
Elections and that can be changed year after year. The party
committees --
MR. LAWLER: So rank and file voters can go object
to the party rules?
MR. ABINANTI: May I -- may I just -- just finish?
So rank and file voters, when they select their district leaders, their
county committee members are choosing one particular philosophy or
one slate of candidates or another. Isn't that why we're having and
we're seeing over and over again so many contesting slates in the -- in
119
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021
the Independ -- in the, well, in the Conservative Party and in the
Working Families Party now? You're seeing contesting slates for
county committee members who are supporting different wings of
their party. And when one party -- one side wins, they then get to
select the leaders there and those leaders select the people above them,
and they select the party rules. So all we're doing is enhancing the
present system. We're not changing anything --
MR. LAWLER: Oh, it's -- it's an enhancement all
right.
MR. ABINANTI: -- that's inconsistent with -- doing
anything inconsistent with the Election Law.
MR. LAWLER: Tom, do we have fusion balloting in
New York State?
MR. ABINANTI: No.
MR. LAWLER: We don't have fusion balloting?
MR. ABINANTI: I'm sorry. We do have fusion
balloting.
MR. LAWLER: Okay. So you can run on multiple
lines.
MR. ABINANTI: Correct.
MR. LAWLER: Why do we have fusion balloting if
you're so worried about candidates who don't subscribe to the
philosophy of one political party that -- over another that they may be
seeking a line, why not eliminate fusion balloting?
MR. ABINANTI: I don't think that's the issue before
120
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021
us.
MR. LAWLER: Well, sure it is because you're trying
to limit the ability of a candidate to appear on another line. So why
not just eliminate fusion balloting outright if you believe that that
party should only nominate candidates that are within that party or
who subscribe to that philosophy?
MR. ABINANTI: That's not what I said.
MR. LAWLER: It is what you said. It is what you
said. Does your bill speak to judicial elections where no Wilson
Pakula is required?
MR. ABINANTI: It does cover all election -- all
primary elections.
MR. LAWLER: But judges don't need a Wilson
Pakula to run on a line, so how does it cover -- how does it cover that?
MR. ABINANTI: It deals with the section that talks
about primary uncontested and opportunity to ballot. I would read that
to cover judges, as well.
MR. LAWLER: Well, how? They -- they can get on
the line, they don't -- they don't need to. They don't need it. Your --
your philosophy is that they need a Wilson Pakula to run. Otherwise
they should not be allowed to -- to run on that line.
(Pause)
On the bill, Mr. Speaker.
MR. ABINANTI: I'm going to have to -- we're going
to have to get an answer for you on that, but I believe it covers all
121
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021
primary elections.
MR. LAWLER: Okay.
On the bill.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: On the bill.
MR. LAWLER: This is nothing more than
incumbency protection. I find it comical, so many people in this Body
have themselves run opportunity to ballots when they didn't like the
decision of a party boss, because it never should be about the party
boss. It should be about the people and the voters of the State of New
York. Voters choose to register with a political party. They should
have the opportunity to ultimately choose who their candidate is in
that political party, not the party bosses. The idea that we are going to
limit the ability of voters to choose who runs on their line is really a
slap in the face to Democracy and it's a slap in the face to our electoral
process, and we should not be limiting the rights of voters at this time.
So I strongly encourage all of my colleagues, whether
you're in the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, or the
Independent as we have in this Chamber, to support Democracy and to
support the right of the voters to decide who their candidates are and
not party bosses. I will be voting in the negative.
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: Mr. Ra.
MR. RA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the sponsor
yield?
ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: Mr. Abinanti, will
you yield?
122
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023
NYS
Preview
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 EXHIBIT B FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021 information on the customer's ability to negotiate fees, and a telephone number of contact information. So it's just -- it's just another regulation that's being put on these small banks. And just also to say, not for nothing, that the Federal regulations already require this type of notification. And for those reasons, the Independent Bankers Association, the New York Credit Union Association oppose it, basically saying that the existing Federal law already requires consumers to be given notice of overdraft fees. This bill would be an unnecessary burden, with which Federal financial institutions would not need to comply. Therefore, I'm voting in the negative and I would encourage my colleagues to do the same. Thank you. ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: Thank you. Are there any other votes? Announce the results. (The Clerk announced the results.) The bill is passed. Page 14, Rules Report No. 513, the Clerk will read. THE CLERK: Assembly No. A07761-A, Rules Report No. 513, Abinanti, Galef. An act to amend the Election Law, in relation to write-in ballots. ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: On a motion by Mr. Abinanti, the Senate bill is before the House. The Senate bill is advanced. (Pause) Mr. Norris. MR. NORRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the 102 FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021 sponsor yield for a couple questions? ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: Mr. Abinanti, will you yield? MR. ABINANTI: Yes, Mr. Speaker, gladly. MR. NORRIS: Mr. Abinanti, what is the purpose of this bill? MR. ABINANTI: The purpose of this bill is to give the party the right to control its own party line. MR. NORRIS: Thank you. Can you explain the opportunity to ballot process and what you're trying to curtail under the current law? MR. ABINANTI: I'm sorry, could you speak into the microphone? MR. NORRIS: Can you please explain the opportunity to ballot process as it is right now and how you're trying to curtail the current language? MR. ABINANTI: Under the existing law, party members can circulate a petition and request that the Board of Elections conduct a primary election in a particular party with no names on the ballot. MR. NORRIS: So they could write in. So individuals will sign an OTB petition, members of the party saying, I would like an opportunity to write in a candidate; would that be correct? MR. ABINANTI: That is correct. 103 FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021 MR. NORRIS: Under the current law, does it have to be a member of the party who they -- they vote for? MR. ABINANTI: Under the current law, it does not have to be. I think if you talk to one of your colleagues from Rockland County when he was running for reelection, he found that he was in the middle of a -- a primary from one of the minor lines and almost lost that line because somebody in a different party tried to -- to enter into that opportunity to ballot and take that line away from him. MR. NORRIS: So if the members of the party within a jurisdiction gather signatures for a write-in ballot, and then they go to the polls and they would write in a candidate of another party, under your proposed legislation, that would disqualify those votes of people who were actually casting ballots for an individual? MR. ABINANTI: That would be consistent with the present law in which we allow the party to determine which candidates can run on their line. At the present time, the -- the party chairs are allowed to authorize a candidate who is in a different political party to run on their line. This concept of allowing somebody from a totally different third party to be written in is an aberration of our Election Law. MR. NORRIS: Two parts of that. So right now someone can receive an authorization if they're not a member of the party by the party leadership, members of that party -- MR. ABINANTI: Correct. MR. NORRIS: Okay. Now, if party members in a 104 FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021 particular jurisdiction circulate an OTB petition, they go to the ballot, to the election booth, they write in somebody who is not a member of their party, exercising their freedom of political association, and that candidate wins the write-in. Under your language, those party members will not be able to select the candidate of their choosing? MR. ABINANTI: This provision would say that for a person to win a primary without a Wilson Pakula, without the permission of the party leadership, they have to be a member of that political party. MR. NORRIS: So -- so -- MR. ABINANTI: The concept behind this is that people who are -- who are representing a party in an election, in a general election, should be -- should have a philosophy consistent with the party they're representing. That's particularly important in a time when we've just raised the -- the burdens to become a political party. So we're giving -- what we're doing here is empowering the leadership of political parties who are doing the work to make that a political party and to keep it as a political party. MR. NORRIS: So Tom, we're -- Mr. Abinanti -- MR. ABINANTI: Sure. Tom is fine. MR. NORRIS: So we're in voting party leadership, but we're not in voting the people who are members of that party who live in the jurisdiction. So it's okay for a party chairman and executive committees to say, Oh, we're going to authorize the Republican or the Democrat, that's fine if it's a minor party, a primary. But if the voters 105 FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021 of that district who enrolled in that party, are members of that party, vote for a candidate who is not a member of their party, they're disqualified? MR. ABINANTI: Well, we are -- it's consistent with Election Law Section 16-110. If you take a look there, the chairman of a county committee of any party can challenge the registration of a voter in that party if they are not sympathetic with the party principles. So the concept is, is to keep the party for people who are sympathetic with it. If it's -- if it's a party that -- that is -- that is pro-business and then a very popular candidate, who is, let's say, pro-labor and anti-business, let's take the extremes, okay, but very popular in that community, then gets written in, in that now you have a pro-business party being represented by an anti-business candidate and that could cost that -- let me just finish -- that could cost that party the party line in November because they don't get the one hundred and -- what is it, 150,000 votes that you need now. MR. NORRIS: But, Mr. Abinanti, the people who are voting in that election would be members of that party. They signed a voter registration form by their freedom of their political association to be a member of that party, and then they go to the voting booth and their write-in for individual who may not be of that political party and they win, they get enough votes, a candidate wins who is not a member of their party; yet, the people who voted are members of that party and that jurisdiction, they're not going to be able to be on the line after the people in that district voted for them? 106 FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021 MR. ABINANTI: Well, this will also prevent the circumstances where you have uncontested elections by candidates who are seeking all of the lines and maybe popular among a small group of people who enroll in the party specifically for the purposes of that primary. We know that in many places, whether it's New York City or Upstate, the primary turnout for smaller districts is -- is -- is miniscule, and it's possible for a few people to register and then take over that party and are not really members of that party. That's why we have this -- MR. NORRIS: But they are members of that party. The checked their voter registration card and they signed it and they said, I'm a member of - I'll use an example, the Conservative Party, I can say the Working Families Party, whatever - I'm a member of that party, I want to do an opportunity to ballot to write in for a Republican, for a Democrat, for someone who is a different party, and they get enough votes, that non-party member, to receive their line, like some of us receive authorizations, I receive the authorization often for the Conservative line to be on the Conservative line. Other members of this Body receive authorizations to be on a particular line, but the voters in that jurisdiction say, I want this candidate to be on the ballot in the general election, they're going to be disqualified? MR. ABINANTI: The purpose of this is to keep the party in the control of those people who have been working really hard to make it a party, and it's -- it's a valuable line these days, whichever minor party you're talking about, and the party chairs have the 107 FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021 responsibility to run the party and put candidates up who are consistent with the philosophy of the party. They spend a lot of time interviewing candidates. They spend a lot of time getting them on the ballot with petitions -- MR. NORRIS: Oh I know, I was a party chair. MR. ABINANTI: -- and we're finding more and more people are changing parties for the purposes of sabotaging the other -- the other political party. MR. NORRIS: You know, I find it very ironic though that the executive committee or a county chairman of a committee can say, Oh, we want to bless this particular person, put you on the ballot if you're not a member of our party, the leadership of the party can do that, but then what voters of the jurisdiction go in and do a write-in petition and exercise their freedom of political association and then exercise their First Amendment right to vote and they vote for a candidate who is not a member of that political party, and that person wins, the (inaudible) is going to say, No, no. You can't have that line after you win the election and the voters of that district who are members of that party by their political association say, I want this candidate who might not be a member of my party, we say it's not okay because the party leadership did not bless it, because there might be disputes within party leadership all around the -- the State. It could be everywhere, in both parties, in all parties. But the people of that district should have an opportunity to exercise their Constitutional right and say, We want to select our own candidate. And that's my 108 FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021 point because I don't think it's fair to people who actually sign the petition -- first of all, they register to vote in that party. They sign the form. Then they sign the petition and they say, I want to have a write-in -- opportunity to write in the candidate of my choosing, and then they actually vote for him, the candidate gets the most votes but because they're not a member of the party, they can't be on the line of the general election. I don't think that's fair, I don't think it's Constitutional, and I have got serious concerns about it. But if you want to address anything, I'm sure -- MR. ABINANTI: I think we have a different point of view here. I think we have a different philosophy. As -- as I said before, given the fact that we've made it very difficult to establish a political party and it now takes a lot of work by some -- by some people, whichever -- wherever they are in the political spectrum, and it takes a lot of work to maintain that party. They have to have 150,000 signatures I believe the number is now, and it's really not fair to them or the people who've worked for that party to find that someone comes along with a surprise and sabotages their efforts by putting up a candidate who cannot win on that line. MR. NORRIS: But, Mr. Abinanti, I don't understand -- MR. ABINANTI: And so the end result is all of their work has been sabotaged -- MR. NORRIS: I don't understand the word sabotaged. 109 FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021 MR. ABINANTI: -- and there's no real contest in November because that party candidate is not real. MR. NORRIS: I don't understand the word sabotage. These people have chosen to be in this party, then they circulate a petition, or someone does, at least the sign the petition saying -- or members of the party to qualify to have an opportunity to ballot, then they go vote as a member of that party, for someone who may not be of the party like we authorize all the time for people to be in other parties. And then they win, but the State Legislature says, No, we can't -- can't let you have the ballot. MR. ABINANTI: But -- but -- but let me make another point on this. The party members choose the leadership and they empower that leadership to give the authorization to candidates to run. Whether they're candidates who are members of the party, or whether they're candidates who are in a different political party but whose philosophy is consistent with the political party that we're talking about. And what we're doing here is consistent with the Election Law. As I said, Section 16-110, subdivision 2, already empowers the county committee to question the enrollment of members in a political party, and this is just consistent with what appears to be an aberration. It allows the -- it's consistent with this and saying that party chairs can choose candidates other than party members. MR. NORRIS: Yes. You know what -- MR. ABINANTI: Look, if party members are upset 110 FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021 with a candidate that their party leadership has chosen, they can get a party membership to -- to -- a party member to run in the primary without any question. MR. NORRIS: I -- I understand your point about the party chairman and executive committee having the authorization ability. I was a county chairman. But I also understand the people who live in that district who has potential disagreements with their leadership. You know, you elect a -- MR. ABINANTI: Well, then they should change the leadership if there's disagreements with the leadership. MR. NORRIS: If you -- if you -- if you elect a chairman of a county, and some of them are very big, right, and you represent a little town, a smaller town in a particular area, and you didn't even vote for that chairman and they don't authorize your slated candidates. At least the people of that party and that jurisdiction should have the opportunity to be heard and have an opportunity to select the candidate who may not be a member of their party. Just like the party chairman said, Oh, it's okay for you if you're not a member of the party to be on there. So Mr. Abinanti, we're going to disagree on this. Let me just go on the bill. I know it's going to be a long day here in the Chamber. ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: On the bill, sir. MR. NORRIS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I want to thank the sponsor for a very spirited debate. I think debate is 111 FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021 always very good. And what I have a very serious concern about are the Constitutional ramifications for this. There is a potential violation of the Constitutional rights of political association, of individuals who choose to be in a political party and then sign a petition and then go and vote and then a candidate may not -- may win who is not a member of their party, but they're not going to be allowed to be on the ballot after the voters in that district who are enrolled in that party said, I want candidate X to be on that petition, or to be on that ballot. And I just think that is trampling on our Constitutional rights, our freedom of speech, our freedom of political association, and I do hope one day if this is ever challenged in court that they'll pull the legislative history and pull the discussion of this bill right now and please examine it very carefully. Because it's okay for a party chairman or a party executive committee, and as I said, I was one, to give a blessing, but it's not okay for the members who live within a particular jurisdiction to do the same. It's not fair. It's against the Equal Protection Clause in my opinion, it's also against the association of political speech. Thank you very much, and I will be in the negative and I encourage all my colleagues to do the same. Thank you. ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: Thank you, sir. Mr. Lawler. MR. LAWLER: Thank you. Will the sponsor yield? ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: Mr. Abinanti, will you yield? 112 FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021 MR. ABINANTI: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would yield. MR. LAWLER: Thank you, sir. Are there any requirements when a voter chooses to register with a political party? Do they have to meet any standard to register with the political party? Do they have to subscribe to certain philosophies or policy positions, or can they just choose on their own to identify with a political party? MR. ABINANTI: They can choose on their own to identify with a party, but that's why the party itself has the opportunity to challenge the enrollment of voters. I mean, there was a lawsuit in Westchester County not long ago dealing with the Independence Party -- I'm sorry, with the Reform Party, where a whole group of voters from one established political party decided to change their -- their party enrollments and go to the other party for the purposes of taking over that party. MR. LAWLER: Mm-hmm. MR. ABINANTI: And the court threw out a lot of those enrolled voters and said they were not consistent with the -- the philosophy of that party and were doing it solely for the purpose of raiding that party. MR. LAWLER: So -- okay. So for instance, do you think the Democratic Party should be able to throw out Democratic Socialists of America out of the Democratic Party? MR. ABINANTI: I'm not going to get involved in which -- which wheel of the party we like and don't like, and I believe that if people are subscribed to the general principles of the 113 FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021 Democratic Party, they're welcome in the Democratic Party. MR. LAWLER: So you like -- you like a big tent approach. MR. ABINANTI: We like a big tent approach. MR. LAWLER: So you don't have to subscribe to a specific philosophy, correct? MR. ABINANTI: That would be my -- my feeling, but we -- MR. LAWLER: Okay. MR. ABINANTI: -- also want to make sure that people are Democrats and believe in the general principles of the Democratic Party. MR. LAWLER: Okay. I'll leave that there, because that could go very -- very far off course. Do you believe that a party boss should have more say over who the candidate and, ultimately, the elected official is than the voters of that party and/or district? MR. ABINANTI: I don't think that a -- a -- a party leader has more say because a party leader is elected by the people who are involved in that party and live locally. And so they empower the power leader -- MR. LAWLER: Mr. Abinanti. MR. ABINANTI: -- to issue what we call a Wilson Pakula to allow candidates to -- MR. LAWLER: Mr. Abinanti, does -- do -- do the voters of a specific subset get to choose the party boss, or is it chosen 114 FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021 by the committee members of a specific subset? MR. ABINANTI: Well, the committee members are elected from their own election districts, so they are representatives and then they elect the next line of -- of leaders -- MR. LAWLER: Do the rank and file voters vote for a political party boss? MR. ABINANTI: They vote for their own representative, just like we have here. Our voters don't get to vote who is Speaker of the Assembly, they get to vote for us and then we choose who is Speaker. MR. LAWLER: And yet the Speaker dictates the rules, right. MR. ABINANTI: The Speaker, in connection with the rest of the Caucus. MR. LAWLER: So your -- your belief -- your belief is that the party boss should dictate the process and the rules and who the candidate is rather than the voters and the people. MR. ABINANTI: Well, you're assuming that the party rules allow one person to make the determination. My understanding of the way the four major political parties now work is that there are rules that are set up established by the conferences or conventions and that allows -- MR. LAWLER: Each party has their own rules. MR. ABINANTI: Correct. MR. LAWLER: I'm not interested in litigating their 115 FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021 rules. MR. ABINANTI: But they usually allow and require a -- a determination by an executive committee. MR. LAWLER: Great. Here's -- here's a question. On the Wilson Pakula, generally speaking, is it the county chair and/or the State chair in these minor parties who make the Wilson Pakula authorizations? MR. ABINANTI: Well, I can only speak to the Democratic party and in the Democratic party, it's the local committee. So it would be the town committee or a village committee -- MR. LAWLER: Right. MR. ABINANTI: -- that's -- that's quite local. MR. LAWLER: But this is really focused on minor parties, it's not really focused on the major political parties. So do the minor parties, is it the county chair and the State chair generally who are issuing the Wilson Pakula? MR. ABINANTI: I -- I'm not familiar enough with the -- well, first of all, which ones are you considering minor parties? MR. LAWLER: Well, there's only -- there's only four parties left, so the Working Families and the Conservative Party. MR. ABINANTI: I -- in my mind there's only one major party, but that's another... at any rate. The -- I'm not familiar with the rules of the other three parties other than the Democratic Party. MR. LAWLER: And yet, you're trying to legislate on 116 FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021 it, so that's interesting. MR. ABINANTI: No, we're just trying to -- we're just trying to continue what the Election Law already provides for. MR. LAWLER: Okay. So the county chair and/or the State chair generally controls the Wilson Pakula for both the Working Families and the Conservative Party, we can agree upon that. MR. ABINANTI: I'll take your word for it, I don't know for sure. MR. LAWLER: The bottom line -- the bottom line is your belief under this bill is that the county chair and/or the State chair should have total say over what goes on in a district, whether it's an Assembly district or a local town district, that's -- that's your belief, that's what this bill will do. MR. ABINANTI: Let me just go back to my own history. I remember when I ran for the State Senate many years ago against an incumbent Senator, we literally had conventions of hundreds of people to determine which one of us would get the Wilson Pakula from the Green Party, and also from the Independence Party. So in that case -- MR. LAWLER: Who -- who got it? MR. ABINANTI: Well, since Yonkers put its votes after Greenburgh did, Nick Spano got the endorsement. MR. LAWLER: Okay. And did you try to do an OTB? MR. ABINANTI: We did not. 117 FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021 MR. LAWLER: Okay. Do we have a closed primary system in New York State? MR. ABINANTI: I'm not sure -- familiar with the term closed primary. MR. LAWLER: Closed primary meaning you have to be a registered member of that party to vote in that primary. In other words, as a Republican I can't vote in the Democratic primary, correct? MR. ABINANTI: That is correct. MR. LAWLER: Okay. MR. ABINANTI: Unless you change your party and we have eliminated all of the -- MR. LAWLER: Yeah, I'm not talking about change of enrollment -- MR. ABINANTI: Now you change it to -- MR. LAWLER: -- I'm specifically talking about if you are a member of a different party, you cannot vote in another party's primary. MR. ABINANTI: If you are enrolled in a political party by a certain date, then you can vote in the primary. MR. LAWLER: We're not talking about changing, Tom, I'm talking specifically about if you are in a party. So if a -- if there's a primary and the voters within that political party circulate a petition to allow for an opportunity to ballot because they don't like the candidate that the party boss chose, okay, and they circulate their 118 FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021 petition and they write in a candidate, why is it that the party boss can pick somebody who is not a registered member of that party to run on that line, but the voters of that party cannot pick somebody who is not a registered member of that party to run on that line? Why -- why are you putting so much faith and trust in the party boss over the voters who have all chosen to be a registered member of that party, whether you like their rationale or not, whether you think they subscribe to the philosophy that you think is appropriate for that party or not, why are you putting more faith in the party boss than the voters? MR. ABINANTI: Because the members of that party have agreed to the party rules which empower their leadership. MR. LAWLER: No they haven't. MR. ABINANTI: Well, allow me to finish. MR. LAWLER: -- no they haven't. MR. ABINANTI: Allow me to finish. There are -- there are party rules in place that have to be filed with the Board of Elections and that can be changed year after year. The party committees -- MR. LAWLER: So rank and file voters can go object to the party rules? MR. ABINANTI: May I -- may I just -- just finish? So rank and file voters, when they select their district leaders, their county committee members are choosing one particular philosophy or one slate of candidates or another. Isn't that why we're having and we're seeing over and over again so many contesting slates in the -- in 119 FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021 the Independ -- in the, well, in the Conservative Party and in the Working Families Party now? You're seeing contesting slates for county committee members who are supporting different wings of their party. And when one party -- one side wins, they then get to select the leaders there and those leaders select the people above them, and they select the party rules. So all we're doing is enhancing the present system. We're not changing anything -- MR. LAWLER: Oh, it's -- it's an enhancement all right. MR. ABINANTI: -- that's inconsistent with -- doing anything inconsistent with the Election Law. MR. LAWLER: Tom, do we have fusion balloting in New York State? MR. ABINANTI: No. MR. LAWLER: We don't have fusion balloting? MR. ABINANTI: I'm sorry. We do have fusion balloting. MR. LAWLER: Okay. So you can run on multiple lines. MR. ABINANTI: Correct. MR. LAWLER: Why do we have fusion balloting if you're so worried about candidates who don't subscribe to the philosophy of one political party that -- over another that they may be seeking a line, why not eliminate fusion balloting? MR. ABINANTI: I don't think that's the issue before 120 FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021 us. MR. LAWLER: Well, sure it is because you're trying to limit the ability of a candidate to appear on another line. So why not just eliminate fusion balloting outright if you believe that that party should only nominate candidates that are within that party or who subscribe to that philosophy? MR. ABINANTI: That's not what I said. MR. LAWLER: It is what you said. It is what you said. Does your bill speak to judicial elections where no Wilson Pakula is required? MR. ABINANTI: It does cover all election -- all primary elections. MR. LAWLER: But judges don't need a Wilson Pakula to run on a line, so how does it cover -- how does it cover that? MR. ABINANTI: It deals with the section that talks about primary uncontested and opportunity to ballot. I would read that to cover judges, as well. MR. LAWLER: Well, how? They -- they can get on the line, they don't -- they don't need to. They don't need it. Your -- your philosophy is that they need a Wilson Pakula to run. Otherwise they should not be allowed to -- to run on that line. (Pause) On the bill, Mr. Speaker. MR. ABINANTI: I'm going to have to -- we're going to have to get an answer for you on that, but I believe it covers all 121 FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 NYS ASSEMBLY JUNE 10, 2021 primary elections. MR. LAWLER: Okay. On the bill. ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: On the bill. MR. LAWLER: This is nothing more than incumbency protection. I find it comical, so many people in this Body have themselves run opportunity to ballots when they didn't like the decision of a party boss, because it never should be about the party boss. It should be about the people and the voters of the State of New York. Voters choose to register with a political party. They should have the opportunity to ultimately choose who their candidate is in that political party, not the party bosses. The idea that we are going to limit the ability of voters to choose who runs on their line is really a slap in the face to Democracy and it's a slap in the face to our electoral process, and we should not be limiting the rights of voters at this time. So I strongly encourage all of my colleagues, whether you're in the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, or the Independent as we have in this Chamber, to support Democracy and to support the right of the voters to decide who their candidates are and not party bosses. I will be voting in the negative. ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: Mr. Ra. MR. RA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the sponsor yield? ACTING SPEAKER AUBRY: Mr. Abinanti, will you yield? 122 FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 03/17/2023 12:14 PM INDEX NO. 801603/2023 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 11 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 03/17/2023 NYS