Preview
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023
MICHAEL JAMES STORTZ
STATE OF NEW YORK
SUPREME COURT : COUNTY OF ERIE
----------------------------------------------------
N.J.S., an Infant, by and through her
Parent and Natural Guardian,
MICHELE SARDO and
MICHELE SARDO, Individually,
Plaintiffs,
-vs-
WEST SENECA CENTRAL SCHOOL DISTRICT,
WEST SENECA CENTRAL SCHOOL DISTRICT
BOARD OF EDUCATION and
WEST SENIOR HIGH SCHOOL,
Defendants.
----------------------------------------------------
WEST SENECA CENTRAL SCHOOL DISTRICT,
WEST SENECA CENTRAL SCHOOL DISTRICT
BOARD OF EDUCATION and
WEST SENIOR HIGH SCHOOL,
Third-Party Plaintiffs,
-vs-
CHRYSTLER LEE STORTZ,
MICHAEL JAMES STORTZ,
BARBARA ANNE STORTZ and
HEATHER A. THIBEAULT
a/k/a HEATHER A. STORTZ,
Third-Party Defendants.
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023
2
Examination Before Trial of
MICHAEL JAMES STORTZ, Third-Party Defendant, taken pursuant
to Notice under Article 31 of the Civil Practice Law and
Rules, in the law offices of LIPSITZ GREEN SCIME CAMBRIA
LLP, 42 Delaware Avenue, Suite 120, Buffalo, New York, taken
on August 24, 2023, commencing at 10:06 A.M., before VALERIE
A. ROSATI, Notary Public.
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FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023
3
1 INDEX TO WITNESSES
2
3
4 Witness: MICHAEL JAMES STORTZ Page
5 Examination By:
6 Mr. Dingeldey 5
7 Mr. Lent 24
8 Mr. Hall 28
9 Ms. Cassar 29
10 Mr. Dingeldey 30
11 Mr. Hall 33
12 Mr. Dingeldey 34
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
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FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
2 C A N T O R, W O L F F, N I C A S T R O & H A L L L L C ,
B y R I C H A R D A . H A L L, E S Q . ,
3 2 1 4 0 M a i n P l a c e T o w e r,
3 5 0 M a i n S t r e e t,
4 B u f f a l o, N e w Y o r k 1 4 2 0 2,
A p p e a r i n g f o r t h e P l a i n t i f f s.
5
B A X T E R & S M I T H, P . C . ,
6 By LOUIS B. DINGELDEY JR., ESQ.,
1 8 2 D w y e r S t r e e t,
7 W e s t S e n e c a, N e w Y o r k 1 4 2 2 4,
Appearing for Defendants and
8 T h i r d- P a r t y P l a i n t i f f s.
9 LIPSITZ GREEN SCIME CAMBRIA LLP,
B y G R E G O R Y P . K R U L L, E S Q . ,
10 4 2 D e l a w a r e A v e n u e,
Suite 120,
11 B u f f a l o, N e w Y o r k 1 4 2 0 2- 3 9 2 4,
A p p e a r i n g f o r T h i r d- P a r t y D e f e n d a n t
12 C h r y s t l e r L e e S t o r t z.
13 D U K E H O L Z M A N P H O T I A T I S & G R E S E N S, L L P ,
B y E L I S E L . C A S S A R, E S Q . ,
14 7 0 1 S e n e c a S t r e e t,
Suite 750,
15 B u f f a l o, N e w Y o r k 1 4 2 1 0,
A p p e a r i n g f o r T h i r d- P a r t y D e f e n d a n t s
16 Michael James Stortz and
B a r b a r a A n n e S t o r t z.
17
M A R S H A L L D E N N E H E Y W A R N E R C O L E M A N & G O G G I N, P . C . ,
18 B y T H O M A S M . L E N T, E S Q . ,
7 1 7 S t a t e S t r e e t,
19 Suite 701,
E r i e, P e n n s y l v a n i a 1 6 5 0 1,
20 A p p e a r i n g f o r T h i r d- P a r t y D e f e n d a n t
Heather A. Thibeault a/k/a
21 H e a t h e r A . S t o r t z.
22 P R E S E N T: Barbara Stortz
23
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1 (The following stipulations were entered
2 i n t o b y a l l p a r t i e s. )
3 It is hereby stipulated by and between counsel
4 for the respective parties that the oath of the
5 R e f e r e e i s w a i v e d, t h a t f i l i n g a n d c e r t i f i c a t i o n
6 o f t h e t r a n s c r i p t a r e w a i v e d, a n d t h a t a l l
7 o b j e c t i o n s, e x c e p t a s t o t h e f o r m o f t h e
8 q u e s t i o n s, a r e r e s e r v e d u n t i l t h e t i m e o f t r i a l.
9
10 M S . C A S S A R: R e a d a n d s i g n, p l e a s e. Thirty days is
11 f i n e.
12
13 M I C H A E L J A M E S S T O R T Z,
14 2 4 B a r n s d a l e A v e n u e, W e s t S e n e c a, N e w Y o r k 1 4 2 2 4,
15 a f t e r b e i n g d u l y c a l l e d a n d s w o r n,
16 t e s t i f i e d a s f o l l o w s:
17
18 E X A M I N A T I O N B Y M R . D I N G E L D E Y:
19
20 Q. G o o d m o r n i n g, M r . S t o r t z.
21 A. Hi.
22 Q. M y n a m e i s L o u D i n g e l d e y. I'm the attorney for
23 t h e W e s t S e n e c a C e n t r a l S c h o o l D i s t r i c t. And I'm
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1 just going to ask you some questions about some
2 i n c i d e n t s t h a t h a p p e n e d b a c k i n o r a b o u t 2 0 1 8,
3 2 0 1 9, a s w e l l a s s o m e b a c k g r o u n d i n f o r m a t i o n.
4 O k a y?
5 A. Um-hum.
6 Q. Is that a yes?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, your attorney may have gone over kind of the
9 g r o u n d r u l e s, i f y o u w i l l, b u t I ' l l j u s t g o o v e r
10 some brief instructions and requests so we can
11 kind of keep a clean record and get you out of
12 h e r e i n a r e a s o n a b l e t i m e. O k a y?
13 A. O k a y.
14 Q. One is try to be patient and use words or an
15 a u d i b l e r e s p o n s e, m e a n i n g y e s , n o o r a n
16 e x p l a n a t i o n, a s o p p o s e d t o a h e a d n o d o r a n
17 uh-huh. Even though I might understand what you
18 m e a n, i t m a y n o t b e c l e a r o n t h e r e c o r d. So if
19 y o u d o t h a t, w e m a y j u s t a s k y o u t o s a y y e s o r n o
20 o r c l a r i f y. O k a y?
21 A. U n d e r s t o o d.
22 Q. A l l r i g h t. P e r f e c t. I f I h e s i t a t e, t r y t o w a i t
23 u n t i l I f i n i s h m y q u e s t i o n, a n d t h a t w a y w e ' r e
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1 n o t t a l k i n g o v e r e a c h o t h e r. And I'll extend you
2 t h e s a m e c o u r t e s y. O k a y?
3 A. U n d e r s t o o d.
4 Q. A n d I s a y t h a t b e c a u s e i n n o r m a l c o n v e r s a t i o n, w e
5 o f t e n i n t e r r u p t o r i n t e r j e c t. It's not being
6 r u d e; i t ' s j u s t h o w w e t a l k. B u t , t h e r e' s a
7 c o u r t r e p o r t e r w h o i s r e c o r d i n g o u r c o n v e r s a t i o n,
8 s o w e w a n t t o m a k e s u r e w e h a v e a n i c e, c l e a n
9 r e c o r d. O k a y?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. If you don't understand or don't hear my
12 q u e s t i o n, m a y b e a f a n k i c k s o n o r I ' m j u s t n o t
13 b e i n g c l e a r e n o u g h o r l o u d e n o u g h, l e t m e k n o w
14 a n d I ' l l b e h a p p y t o r e p e a t o r r e p h r a s e. O k a y?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. A l l r i g h t. A d d i t i o n a l l y, I ' m g o i n g t o t r y t o b e
17 s o m e w h a t l i n e a r, b u t I m a y h a v e t o m o v e b a c k a n d
18 f o r t h i n t i m e a s f a r a s t h e q u e s t i o ns I ' m a s k i n g.
19 I f y o u b e c o m e u n c l e a r a s t o t h e t i m e f r a m e, j u s t
20 l e t m e k n o w a n d I ' l l c l a r i f y t h a t. O k a y?
21 A. O k a y.
22 Q. A l l r i g h t. C a n I g e t y o u r d a t e o f b i r t h?
23 A. M a y 2 8 t h , 1 9 6 0.
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1 Q. O k a y. And these are just basic background
2 q u e s t i o n s.
3 A. Yep.
4 Q. H a v e y o u e v e r b e e n c o n v i c t e d o f a n y c r i m e s?
5 A. No.
6 Q. A n y m i l i t a r y s e r v i c e?
7 A. No.
8 Q. E v e r f i l e d b a n k r u p t c y?
9 A. No.
10 Q. A l l r i g h t. Are you the biological father of
11 C h r y s t l e r S t o r t z?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. O k a y. And how old is Chrystler now?
14 A. T w e n t y- o n e .
15 Q. D o e s h e r e s i d e w i t h y o u a t p r e s e n t?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did Chrystler reside with you back in May of 2019
18 w h e n h e w a s a j u n i o r i n h i g h s c h o o l?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Y o u r w i f e, B a r b a r a A n n e, i s w i t h u s t o d a y.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I s s h e C h r y s t l e r' s m o t h e r?
23 A. No.
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1 Q. S h e ' s h i s s t e p m o t h e r?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. O k a y. C h r y s t l e r' s m o t h e r i s H e a t h e r T h i b e a u l t?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. W e r e y o u m a r r i e d t o M s . T h i b e a u l t a t o n e t i m e?
6 A. A t o n e t i m e.
7 Q. A n d y o u w e r e l e g a l l y d i v o r c e d?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. W h e n w a s y o u r d i v o r c e?
10 A. I b e l i e v e i t w a s J a n u a r y o f 2 0 0 6.
11 Q. O k a y. A n d H e a t h e r T h i b e a u l t, i s t h a t C h r y s t l e r' s
12 b i o l o g i c a l m o t h e r?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. W h e n y o u w e r e d i v o r c e d, w a s t h e r e a n y t y p e o f
15 a r r a n g e m e n t a s t o c u s t o d y o f C h r y s t l e r?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. W h a t w a s t h a t a r r a n g e m e n t?
18 A. I h a d p h y s i c a l c u s t o d y, b u t i n o u r d i v o r c e
19 a g r e e m e n t, i t w a s j o i n t c u s t o d y.
20 Q. T h a t m e a n s C h r y s t l e r p r i m a r i l y r e s i d ed w i t h y o u ?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. A n d w a s t h a t s t i l l t h e c a s e i n M a y o f 2 0 1 9?
23 A. Yes.
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1 Q. A l l r i g h t. P r i o r t o M a y o f 2 0 1 9, h a d C h r y s t l e r
2 ever been in any type of counseling or
3 p s y c h i a t r i c t r e a t m e n t o r t h e r a p y?
4 A. I n e e d t o c l a r i f y.
5 Q. S u r e.
6 A. W e a s a b l e n d e d f a m i l y h a d b e e n - - B a r b a r a,
7 m y s e l f, m y t w o s o n s a n d h e r - - B a r b a r a' s s o n
8 Anthony had all been attending since 2010 family
9 c o u n s e l i n g.
10 Q. And was that -- did that continue up and
11 i n c l u d i n g 2 0 1 0 t h r o u g h 2 0 1 9?
12 A. I'm unsure as to when the regular scheduling
13 d i d n' t g o . I know it was until probably at least
14 2 0 1 6 f o r s u r e. I can't recollect how often we
15 c o n t i n u e d a f t e r t h a t.
16 Q. D u r i n g t h e c o u r s e o f t h a t f a m i l y c o u n s e l i n g, w a s
17 Chrystler ever diagnosed with any type of mental
18 c o n d i t i o n?
19 A. No.
20 Q. After these allegations came to light in or
21 a r o u n d M a y o r J u n e o f 2 0 1 9, w a s C h r y s t l e r
22 s u b s e q u e n t l y, m e a n i n g f r o m t h e n t o n o w , d i a g n o s e d
23 w i t h a n y t y p e o f m e n t a l c o n d i t i o n?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. You understand that your son has been criminally
3 a n d c i v i l l y a c c u s e d o f a r a p e?
4 A. Yes.
5 M S . C A S S A R: F o r m.
6 T H E W I T N E S S: Well --
7 M R . D I N G E L D E Y: O f s e x u a l a s s a u l t, i f y o u p r e f e r.
8 M S . C A S S A R: F o r m.
9 T H E W I T N E S S: H e w a s w h a t?
10 B Y M R . D I N G E L D E Y:
11 Q. A c c u s e d.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. O k a y. Are you, are you familiar with the
14 allegations made by N.J.S. against your son?
15 A. N o t s p e c i f i c a l l y.
16 Q. W e r e y o u a w a r e d u r i n g y o u r s o n ' s j u n i o r y e a r, s o
17 f o r t h e 2 0 1 8 t o ' 1 9 s c h o o l y e a r, t h a t C h r y s t l e r
18 was dating or seeing a female student named
19 N.J.S.?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Were you aware of Chrystler dating anyone during
22 h i s j u n i o r y e a r o f h i g h s c h o o l?
23 A. Yes.
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1 Q. W h o a r e y o u a w a r e o f y o u r s o n d a t i n g?
2 A. I d o n ' t r e c a l l t h e n a m e. I do know he attended a
3 s c h o o l f u n c t i o n w i t h s o m e b o d y. I h a v e a p i c t u r e,
4 a n o l d p i c t u r e i n m y p h o n e. I do not know her
5 n a m e. I c a n n o t r e c a l l. And I believe he went
6 o u t t o e a t a n d h a d d a t e s w i t h o t h e r g i r l s.
7 Q. O k a y. D i d h e - - t o y o u r k n o w l e d g e, d u r i n g h i s
8 j u n i o r y e a r, d i d h e d a t e a g i r l f r o m S w e e t H o m e
9 S c h o o l s?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Other than the allegation by N.J.S., are you
12 aware of any other allegations of rape or sexual
13 misconduct by your son in the general time frame
14 o f 2 0 1 8 t o 2 0 1 9?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you tell me about the other allegation that
17 w a s m a d e?
18 A. It was -- there was allegations made by somebody
19 representing and/or a girl who attended Sweet
20 H o m e S c h o o l, a n d I c a n ' t r e c a l l h e r n a m e a t t h e
21 m o m e n t.
22 Q. W h e n d i d y o u l e a r n a b o u t t h o s e a l l e g a t i o n s?
23 A. I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r t h e y e a r. It's been so long
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1 ago. I was contacted by the West Seneca Police
2 D e p a r t m e n t, a d e t e c t i v e, a s k i n g q u e s t i o n s
3 r e g a r d i n g a g i r l f r o m S w e e t H o m e.
4 Q. Did Chrystler give you any information about
5 t h o s e a l l e g a t i o n s?
6 A. No. No.
7 Q. Were you present when he provided information to
8 p o l i c e o r a n y o n e e l s e?
9 A. No.
10 Q. When you learned about the allegation from the
11 g i r l f r o m S w e e t H o m e, w a s t h a t b e f o r e o r a f t e r
12 you learned about the allegations by N.J.S.?
13 A. R e p e a t.
14 Q. When you learned about the Sweet Home -- the
15 a c c u s a t i o n s f r o m t h e w o m a n f r o m S w e e t H o m e, i s
16 t h a t b e f o r e o r a f t e r y o u l e a r ne d a b o u t t h e
17 allegations by N.J.S.?
18 A. B e f o r e.
19 Q. D o y o u k n o w a b o u t h o w l o n g b e f o r e?
20 A. F o u r, f i v e m o n t h s p o s s i b l y.
21 Q. Did you tell anyone about those allegations
22 a g a i n s t C h r y s t l e r, o t h e r t h a n C h r y s t l e r' s l a w y e r?
23 A. No.
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1 Q. Did you tell anyone from West Seneca Schools
2 a b o u t t h e a l l e g a t i o n s t h a t w e r e m a d e?
3 A. No.
4 Q. What was your understanding as to what the
5 a l l e g a t i o n s w e r e?
6 A. T h a t C h r y s t l e r h a d a n a l s e x , I b e l i e v e, w i t h t h i s
7 g i r l.
8 Q. W a s t h e a l l e g a t i o n t h a t i t w a s w i t h o u t c o n s e n t?
9 A. At the time I don't recall whether it was consent
10 or not.
11 Q. D o y o u k n o w t h e a g e o f t h a t g i r l, a p p r o x i m a t e l y?
12 A. I d o n ' t k n o w.
13 Q. Do you know if she was in the same grade or
14 s i m i l a r g r a d e t o C h r y s t l e r?
15 A. I d o n o t k n o w.
16 Q. W h a t w o u l d b e y o u r - - I j u s t w a n t t o c l a r i f y.
17 You knew there was police involvement and they
18 w e r e - - u l t i m a t e l y y o u r s o n w a s c h a r ge d ?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. A n d i f y o u k n e w a b o u t t h i s, w h a t w o u l d - - w o u l d
21 you have an understanding as to what the criminal
22 c o m p o n e n t w a s o f t h a t s i t u a t i o n?
23 A. A t t h e t i m e, n o .
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1 Q. Do you recall a prior incident when Chrystler was
2 in approximately sixth or seventh grade when he
3 d i s a p p e a r e d f o r a p e r i o d o f t i m e, m a y b e
4 t w e n t y- f o u r h o u r s, a n d p o l i c e w e r e i n v o l v e d i n
5 looking for him?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you remember approximately when that was?
8 A. I h a v e n o i d e a.
9 Q. W a s h e i n e l e m e n t a r y s c h o o l, m i d d l e s c h o o l, h i g h
10 s c h o o l?
11 A. I d o n ' t r e c a l l.
12 Q. B u t y o u r e c a l l h e w e n t m i s s i n g. Do you know how
13 l o n g h e w e n t m i s s i n g?
14 A. I believe it was one day.
15 Q. Do you recall anything about the circumstances of
16 t h a t d i s a p p e a r a n c e?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you tell me what you recall about the
19 c i r c u m s t a n c e s?
20 A. H e h a d n e v e r c o m e h o m e, a n d I g o t c o n t a c t e d b y
21 W e s t S e n e c a P o l i c e. I remember I had a picture
22 on a tablet and that led me to believe that it
23 w a s a v a c a n t b u i l d i n g a t t h e e n d o f m y s t r e e t.
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1 And then the police and I went there and he was
2 f o u n d t h e r e.
3 Q. W a s h e f o u n d t h e r e w i t h a y o u n g w o m a n?
4 A. I d o n ' t k n o w.
5 Q. Y o u d i d n' t e n t e r t h e b u i l di n g w i t h t h e p o l i c e?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you ever learn he was -- ever learn or were
8 t o l d h e w a s i n t h e r e w i t h a y o u n g w o m a n?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. W h o t o l d y o u t h a t?
11 A. T h e p o l i c e.
12 Q. D o y o u k n o w t h e i d e n t i t y o f t h a t y o u n g w o m a n?
13 A. No.
14 Q. W h e n y o u s a y y o u h a d a p i c t u r e, h o w d i d y o u g e t a
15 p i c t u r e o f h i m i n a n a b a n d o n e d b u i l d i n g?
16 A. I t w a s l i k e s o c i a l m e d i a o r S n a p - - n o t S n a p c h a t.
17 S o m e t h i n g o n s o c i a l m e d i a o r a t a b l e t. I don't
18 k n o w i f i t w a s a t e x t m e s s a g e. Some -- it was on
19 a t a b l e t.
20 Q. Chrystler may have posted a picture and you saw
21 i t a n d t h e n r e c o g n i z ed t h e b u i l d i n g?
22 A. I b e l i e v e t h a t' s a c c u r a t e.
23 Q. O k a y. After that incident -- was that during the
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1 s c h o o l y e a r o r d u r i n g a s u m m e r b r e a k? Do you
2 know when it was?
3 A. I d o n ' t r e c a l l.
4 Q. O t h e r t h a n t h e p o l i c e w h o w e r e i n v o l v e d, d i d y o u
5 t e l l a n y o n e a b o u t t h a t i n c i d e n t?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you tell anyone from West Seneca Schools
8 a b o u t t h e i n c i d e n t?
9 A. No.
10 M R . H A L L: I ' m s o r r y. I m i s s e d t h a t. What did you
11 say?
12 M R . D I N G E L D E Y: I said did you tell anyone from West
13 S e n e c a S c h o o l s a b o u t t h a t i n c i d e n t.
14 T H E W I T N E S S: No.
15 B Y M R . D I N G E L D E Y:
16 Q. The young woman -- going back to the young woman
17 f r o m S w e e t H o m e. To your knowledge had she ever
18 b e e n i n y o u r h o u s e?
19 A. A t w h a t p o i n t i n t i m e?
20 Q. P r i o r t o t h e r a p e a l l e g a t i o n c o m i n g t o l i g h t.
21 Or, the sexual misconduct allegation coming to
22 l i g h t.
23 A. Hers or --
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1 Q. W a s s h e e v e r i n y o u r h o u s e?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. D o y o u k n o w h o w s h e g o t t h e r e?
4 A. I b r o u g h t h e r t h e r e.
5 Q. W a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n di n g t h a t s h e w a s a f r i e n d, a
6 g i r l f r i e n d? What was your understanding when you
7 did so?
8 A. S o m e b o d y t h a t C h r y s t l e r k n e w f r o m F a c e b o o k, I
9 b e l i e v e.
10 Q. A n d d i d s h e s p e n d t h e n i g h t a t y o u r h o m e?
11 A. No.
12 Q. H o w l o n g w a s s h e p r e s e n t a t y o u r h o m e?
13 A. P o s s i b l y t w o h o u r s.
14 Q. W h i l e s h e w a s t h e r e, d i d s h e m a k e a n y c o m p l a i n t s
15 o r r a i s e a n y c o n c e r ns t o y o u a b o u t C h r y s t l e r' s
16 c o n d u c t?
17 A. No.
18 Q. A n d h o w d i d s h e g e t h o m e?
19 A. I d r o v e h e r t o h e r g r a n d m o t h e r' s h o u s e t h a t s h e
20 said it was.
21 Q. To your knowledge had Chrystler ever been to the
22 h o m e o r g r a n d m o t h e r' s h o m e f r o m t h e w o m a n f r o m
23 S w e e t H o m e?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Following -- going back to the incident where
3 C h r y s t l e r w e n t m i s s i n g. Do you know if there was
4 a n y p o l i c e i n v e s t i g a t i o n o r a n y c h a r g es f o l l o w i n g
5 h i m b e i n g f o u n d i n t h a t a b a n d o n e d h o m e?
6 A. T h e r e w e r e n o n e.
7 Q. O t h e r t h a n t h e i n c i d e n t i n v o l vi n g N . J . S . a n d t h e
8 i n c i d e n t i n v o l v i n g t h e w o m a n f r o m S w e e t H o m e, a r e
9 you aware of any other allegations of your son
10 conducting himself in a criminal or inappropriate
11 s e x u a l m a n n e r w i t h a n y o t h e r w o m e n?
12 A. No.
13 M S . C A S S A R: F o r m.
14 B Y M R . D I N G E L D E Y:
15 Q. After the allegations were made by N.J.S., what
16 w a s t h e r e s o l u t i o n w i t h C h r y s t l e r' s p r e s e n c e a t
17 s c h o o l? W a s h e t a k e n o u t o f s c h o o l?
18 A. In early September I believe -- and I'm trying to
19 r e m e m b e r. I t h i n k i t w a s 2 0 1 9. The beginning of
20 t w e l f t h g r a d e. C h r y s t l e r, m y s e l f a n d t h e
21 principal of the school met, and we were advised
22 that he would not be attending the school for his
23 t w e l f t h- g r a d e e d u c a t i o n a n d t h a t t h e s c h o o l
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1 arranged tutoring at the West Seneca Public
2 Library so that he could complete his
3 t w e l f t h- g r a d e e d u c a t i o n a n d g r a d u a t e. The
4 p r i n c i p a l w a s a d a m a n t a b o u t h i m g r a d u a t i n g.
5 Q. O k a y. And is it your understanding and so
6 Chrystler -- my understanding is Chrystler was
7 not present at school physically during his
8 s e n i o r y e a r.
9 A. C o r r e c t.
10 Q. O k a y.
11 A. And I --
12 Q. From the time the allegations came to light in or
13 a r o u n d M a y o r J u n e o r t h e r e a b o u t s o f 2 0 1 9, d i d
14 C h r y s t l e r h a v e t o s p e n d a n y t i m e, y o u k n o w, i n a
15 l o c k- u p o r a j a i l- t y p e f a c i l i t y?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Was he on any type of probation or any type of
18 p h y s i c a l r e s t r i c t i o n s w h i l e h i s c h a r g es w e r e
19 p e n d i n g?
20 A. N o t a t t h a t t i m e.
21 Q. U l t i m a t e l y a s a r e s u l t o f a p l e a, w a s h e o n
22 p r o b a t i o n f o r a p e r i o d o f t i m e?
23 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Do you know what that length of probation was?
2 A. O r i g i n a l l y o n e y e a r.
3 Q. Do you -- were you familiar with the nature of
4 y o u r s o n ' s p l e a, o r n o ?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. W h a t w a s h i s p l e a?
7 A. N o t g u i l ty .
8 Q. U l t i m a t e l y d i d h e t a k e a p l e a d e a l?
9 A. I don't, I don't know the legal arrangements of
10 h o w i t w e n t. I know the judge told him he had
11 o n e y e a r o f p r o b a t i o n.
12 Q. Did you have to testify at all in any criminal
13 proceedings regarding either of those rape or
14 sexual misconduct allegations --
15 A. No.
16 Q. - - b y e i t h e r o f t h o s e t w o w o m e n?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you recall anything about that conversation
19 w i t h t h e p r i n c i p a l i n t h e b e g i nn i n g o f y o u r s o n ' s
20 t w e l f t h- g r a d e y e a r, o t h e r t h a n t h e f a c t t h a t y o u r
21 son would receive an education but it would be
22 o f f o f s c h o o l g r o u n d s?
23 A. I believe there was going to be a -- there was a
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1 h e a r i n g, a s u p e r i n t e n d e n t h e a r i n g w h e r e t h e y d i d
2 t h e l e g a l s t u f f r e g a r d i n g h i s s u s p e n s i o n.
3 Q. D i d y o u h a v e t o a p p e a r f o r t h a t?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. D i d y o u g i v e t e s t i m o n y?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. D o y o u r e c a l l w h a t y o u t e s t i f i e d a b o u t?
8 A. N o t s p e c i f i c a l l y.
9 Q. Do you recall telling either the principal or the
10 superintendent anything about those prior
11 i n c i d e n t s, e i t h e r t h e i n c i d e n t w h e n y o u r s o n w e n t
12 missing and was found in the abandoned building
13 o r t h e a l l e g a t i o n s b y t h e S w e e t H o m e s t u d e n t?
14 A. The only thing I recall hearing regarding any
15 misconduct was somebody at the meeting with the
16 s c h o o l w a n t e d t o b r i n g u p t h e c h a r g es t h a t w e r e
17 p e n d i n g, I g u e s s, a n d I h a d m e n t i o ne d t h a t i t w a s
18 not relevant to his suspension based on what the
19 p r i n c i p a l, C h r y s t l e r a n d I h a d t a l k e d a b o u t i n
20 t h e l a t e A u g u s t, e a r l y S e p t e m b e r m e e t i n g.
21 Q. As far as -- was Chrystler a student at West
22 S e n e c a W e s t H i g h S c h o o l f o r a l l f o u r y e a rs o f
23 h i g h s c h o o l, o t h e r t h a n h i m b e i n g h o m e s c h o o l e d
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1 or --
2 A. C o r r e c t.
3 Q. - - t h e r e m o t e l e a r n i n g?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did he -- to your knowledge did he have any
6 d i s c i p l i n a r y h i s t o r y a t s c h o o l?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What was -- what would those incidents be that
9 you're aware of?
10 A. The notes that got sent home where he got
11 d e t e n t i o n a n d s t u f f l i k e t h a t r e g a r d i n g h o m e w o r k.
12 I t h i n k i t w a s h o m e w o r k, t a l k i n g i n c l a s s,
13 p o s s i b l y l a t e o r a b s e n t.
14 Q. Anything that you were aware of as far as
15 discipline in school regarding any violence or
16 s e x u a l- t y p e b e h a v i o r?
17 A. No.
18 Q. W h a t a b o u t a n y t h i n g r e g a r d i n g t h r e a t s, t h r e a t s o f
19 v i o l e n c e o r s e x u a l b e h a v i o r?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Prior to the allegations coming to light from
22 N.J.S., were you aware of who she was at all?
23 A. No.
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1 Q. W a s C h r y s t l e r i n v o l v e d i n a n y s p o r ts o r
2 a c t i v i t i es a t s c h o o l? W h e n I s a y s c h o o l, I m e a n
3 h i g h s c h o o l.
4 A. N o t s c h o o l r e l a t e d o n e s.
5 M R . D I N G E L D E Y: I m a y l o o k a t m y n o t e s. That may be
6 a l l I h a v e, u n l e s s a n y b o d y e l s e h a s q u e s t i o ns a n d
7 t h e n I m a y h a v e a f o l l o w- u p o r t w o .
8 M R . K R U L L: I h a v e n o q u e s t i o n s.
9 M R . L E N T: I h a v e s o m e f o l l o w- u p .
10
11 E X A M I N A T I O N B Y M R . L E N T:
12
13 Q. M r . S t o r t z, m y n a m e i s T o m L e n t a n d I r e p r e s e n t
14 H e a t h e r. How old was Chrystler when he last
15 l i v e d i n t h e s a m e h o u s e h o l d a s H e a t h e r?
16 A. It would have been sometime -- I believe it was
17 prior to January of '06. Because his mother had
18 bought a house in North Tonawanda before our
19 d i v o r c e w a s c o m p l e t e d, a n d I r e m e m b e r I g o t m y
20 own apartment in February of '07. And prior to
21 t h a t, w e h a d l i v e d i n o u r m a t r i m o n i a l h o m e u n t i l
22 t h e n. But she had bought a house and moved out.
23 I cannot remember when she bought the house and
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1 she physically separated from me, but it was
2 p r i o r t o o u r d i v o r c e.
3 Q. Do you remember how old Chrystler was at the
4 t i m e?
5 A. At the time when his mother and I no longer lived
6 t o g e t h e r, h e w o u l d h a v e b e e n, h e w o u l d h a v e b e e n
7 f o u r.
8 Q. O k a y.
9 A. M a y b e t h r e e a n d a h a l f, f o u r.
10 Q. A l l r i g h t. A n d a s a r e s u l t o f t h e d i v o r c e, y o u
11 h a d p r i m a r y c u s t o d y, h e l i v e d w i t h y o u ?
12 A. S i n c e t h e n, y e s .
13 Q. A l l r i g h t. A n d w h e n h e w a s e n r o l le d i n t h e
14 s c h o o l s y s t e m f r o m t h a t t i m e f o r w a r d, w a s h i s
15 address -- was the address on file with the
16 s c h o o l t y p i c a l l y y o u r a d d r e s s?
17 A. C o r r e c t.
18 Q. A n d h i s r e p o r t c a r d s w o u l d c o m e t o y o u r h o m e?
19 A. C o r r e c t. C o p i e s w o u l d g o t o t h e m o t h e r. I
20 b e l i e v e w e r e q u e s t e d c o p i e s.
21 Q. O k a y. Did Heather ever complain to you at any
22 time that there was an occasion where she stopped
23 getting communication from the school about
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1 C h r y s t l e r' s p r o g r e s s, r e p o r t c a r d s, t h a t s o r t o f
2 t h i n g?
3 A. I believe so.
4 Q. W h a t w a s t h e d a t e o f y o u r m a r r i a g e t o B a r b a r a?
5 Y o u d o n ' t h a v e t o g i v e t h e s p e c i f i c d a t e. She's
6 r i g h t t h e r e.
7 A. J u l y o f 2 0 1 0.
8 Q. The pressure is on.
9 A. J u l y o f 2 0 1 0.
10 Q. A l l r i g h t. You had mentioned that you were in I
11 guess family counseling from about 2010 I think
12 t h r o u g h a r o u n d 2 0 1 6. Was that the result of any
13 s p e c i f i c i s s u e s i n t h e f a m i l y, o r w h a t p r o m p t e d
14 t h a t t o o c c u r?
15 A. T y p i c a l b l e n d e d f a m i l y. T h e c o u n s e
Preview
FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 MICHAEL JAMES STORTZ STATE OF NEW YORK SUPREME COURT : COUNTY OF ERIE ---------------------------------------------------- N.J.S., an Infant, by and through her Parent and Natural Guardian, MICHELE SARDO and MICHELE SARDO, Individually, Plaintiffs, -vs- WEST SENECA CENTRAL SCHOOL DISTRICT, WEST SENECA CENTRAL SCHOOL DISTRICT BOARD OF EDUCATION and WEST SENIOR HIGH SCHOOL, Defendants. ---------------------------------------------------- WEST SENECA CENTRAL SCHOOL DISTRICT, WEST SENECA CENTRAL SCHOOL DISTRICT BOARD OF EDUCATION and WEST SENIOR HIGH SCHOOL, Third-Party Plaintiffs, -vs- CHRYSTLER LEE STORTZ, MICHAEL JAMES STORTZ, BARBARA ANNE STORTZ and HEATHER A. THIBEAULT a/k/a HEATHER A. STORTZ, Third-Party Defendants. FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 2 Examination Before Trial of MICHAEL JAMES STORTZ, Third-Party Defendant, taken pursuant to Notice under Article 31 of the Civil Practice Law and Rules, in the law offices of LIPSITZ GREEN SCIME CAMBRIA LLP, 42 Delaware Avenue, Suite 120, Buffalo, New York, taken on August 24, 2023, commencing at 10:06 A.M., before VALERIE A. ROSATI, Notary Public. Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 3 1 INDEX TO WITNESSES 2 3 4 Witness: MICHAEL JAMES STORTZ Page 5 Examination By: 6 Mr. Dingeldey 5 7 Mr. Lent 24 8 Mr. Hall 28 9 Ms. Cassar 29 10 Mr. Dingeldey 30 11 Mr. Hall 33 12 Mr. Dingeldey 34 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 4 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: 2 C A N T O R, W O L F F, N I C A S T R O & H A L L L L C , B y R I C H A R D A . H A L L, E S Q . , 3 2 1 4 0 M a i n P l a c e T o w e r, 3 5 0 M a i n S t r e e t, 4 B u f f a l o, N e w Y o r k 1 4 2 0 2, A p p e a r i n g f o r t h e P l a i n t i f f s. 5 B A X T E R & S M I T H, P . C . , 6 By LOUIS B. DINGELDEY JR., ESQ., 1 8 2 D w y e r S t r e e t, 7 W e s t S e n e c a, N e w Y o r k 1 4 2 2 4, Appearing for Defendants and 8 T h i r d- P a r t y P l a i n t i f f s. 9 LIPSITZ GREEN SCIME CAMBRIA LLP, B y G R E G O R Y P . K R U L L, E S Q . , 10 4 2 D e l a w a r e A v e n u e, Suite 120, 11 B u f f a l o, N e w Y o r k 1 4 2 0 2- 3 9 2 4, A p p e a r i n g f o r T h i r d- P a r t y D e f e n d a n t 12 C h r y s t l e r L e e S t o r t z. 13 D U K E H O L Z M A N P H O T I A T I S & G R E S E N S, L L P , B y E L I S E L . C A S S A R, E S Q . , 14 7 0 1 S e n e c a S t r e e t, Suite 750, 15 B u f f a l o, N e w Y o r k 1 4 2 1 0, A p p e a r i n g f o r T h i r d- P a r t y D e f e n d a n t s 16 Michael James Stortz and B a r b a r a A n n e S t o r t z. 17 M A R S H A L L D E N N E H E Y W A R N E R C O L E M A N & G O G G I N, P . C . , 18 B y T H O M A S M . L E N T, E S Q . , 7 1 7 S t a t e S t r e e t, 19 Suite 701, E r i e, P e n n s y l v a n i a 1 6 5 0 1, 20 A p p e a r i n g f o r T h i r d- P a r t y D e f e n d a n t Heather A. Thibeault a/k/a 21 H e a t h e r A . S t o r t z. 22 P R E S E N T: Barbara Stortz 23 Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 5 1 (The following stipulations were entered 2 i n t o b y a l l p a r t i e s. ) 3 It is hereby stipulated by and between counsel 4 for the respective parties that the oath of the 5 R e f e r e e i s w a i v e d, t h a t f i l i n g a n d c e r t i f i c a t i o n 6 o f t h e t r a n s c r i p t a r e w a i v e d, a n d t h a t a l l 7 o b j e c t i o n s, e x c e p t a s t o t h e f o r m o f t h e 8 q u e s t i o n s, a r e r e s e r v e d u n t i l t h e t i m e o f t r i a l. 9 10 M S . C A S S A R: R e a d a n d s i g n, p l e a s e. Thirty days is 11 f i n e. 12 13 M I C H A E L J A M E S S T O R T Z, 14 2 4 B a r n s d a l e A v e n u e, W e s t S e n e c a, N e w Y o r k 1 4 2 2 4, 15 a f t e r b e i n g d u l y c a l l e d a n d s w o r n, 16 t e s t i f i e d a s f o l l o w s: 17 18 E X A M I N A T I O N B Y M R . D I N G E L D E Y: 19 20 Q. G o o d m o r n i n g, M r . S t o r t z. 21 A. Hi. 22 Q. M y n a m e i s L o u D i n g e l d e y. I'm the attorney for 23 t h e W e s t S e n e c a C e n t r a l S c h o o l D i s t r i c t. And I'm Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 6 1 just going to ask you some questions about some 2 i n c i d e n t s t h a t h a p p e n e d b a c k i n o r a b o u t 2 0 1 8, 3 2 0 1 9, a s w e l l a s s o m e b a c k g r o u n d i n f o r m a t i o n. 4 O k a y? 5 A. Um-hum. 6 Q. Is that a yes? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Now, your attorney may have gone over kind of the 9 g r o u n d r u l e s, i f y o u w i l l, b u t I ' l l j u s t g o o v e r 10 some brief instructions and requests so we can 11 kind of keep a clean record and get you out of 12 h e r e i n a r e a s o n a b l e t i m e. O k a y? 13 A. O k a y. 14 Q. One is try to be patient and use words or an 15 a u d i b l e r e s p o n s e, m e a n i n g y e s , n o o r a n 16 e x p l a n a t i o n, a s o p p o s e d t o a h e a d n o d o r a n 17 uh-huh. Even though I might understand what you 18 m e a n, i t m a y n o t b e c l e a r o n t h e r e c o r d. So if 19 y o u d o t h a t, w e m a y j u s t a s k y o u t o s a y y e s o r n o 20 o r c l a r i f y. O k a y? 21 A. U n d e r s t o o d. 22 Q. A l l r i g h t. P e r f e c t. I f I h e s i t a t e, t r y t o w a i t 23 u n t i l I f i n i s h m y q u e s t i o n, a n d t h a t w a y w e ' r e Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 7 1 n o t t a l k i n g o v e r e a c h o t h e r. And I'll extend you 2 t h e s a m e c o u r t e s y. O k a y? 3 A. U n d e r s t o o d. 4 Q. A n d I s a y t h a t b e c a u s e i n n o r m a l c o n v e r s a t i o n, w e 5 o f t e n i n t e r r u p t o r i n t e r j e c t. It's not being 6 r u d e; i t ' s j u s t h o w w e t a l k. B u t , t h e r e' s a 7 c o u r t r e p o r t e r w h o i s r e c o r d i n g o u r c o n v e r s a t i o n, 8 s o w e w a n t t o m a k e s u r e w e h a v e a n i c e, c l e a n 9 r e c o r d. O k a y? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. If you don't understand or don't hear my 12 q u e s t i o n, m a y b e a f a n k i c k s o n o r I ' m j u s t n o t 13 b e i n g c l e a r e n o u g h o r l o u d e n o u g h, l e t m e k n o w 14 a n d I ' l l b e h a p p y t o r e p e a t o r r e p h r a s e. O k a y? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. A l l r i g h t. A d d i t i o n a l l y, I ' m g o i n g t o t r y t o b e 17 s o m e w h a t l i n e a r, b u t I m a y h a v e t o m o v e b a c k a n d 18 f o r t h i n t i m e a s f a r a s t h e q u e s t i o ns I ' m a s k i n g. 19 I f y o u b e c o m e u n c l e a r a s t o t h e t i m e f r a m e, j u s t 20 l e t m e k n o w a n d I ' l l c l a r i f y t h a t. O k a y? 21 A. O k a y. 22 Q. A l l r i g h t. C a n I g e t y o u r d a t e o f b i r t h? 23 A. M a y 2 8 t h , 1 9 6 0. Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 8 1 Q. O k a y. And these are just basic background 2 q u e s t i o n s. 3 A. Yep. 4 Q. H a v e y o u e v e r b e e n c o n v i c t e d o f a n y c r i m e s? 5 A. No. 6 Q. A n y m i l i t a r y s e r v i c e? 7 A. No. 8 Q. E v e r f i l e d b a n k r u p t c y? 9 A. No. 10 Q. A l l r i g h t. Are you the biological father of 11 C h r y s t l e r S t o r t z? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. O k a y. And how old is Chrystler now? 14 A. T w e n t y- o n e . 15 Q. D o e s h e r e s i d e w i t h y o u a t p r e s e n t? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did Chrystler reside with you back in May of 2019 18 w h e n h e w a s a j u n i o r i n h i g h s c h o o l? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Y o u r w i f e, B a r b a r a A n n e, i s w i t h u s t o d a y. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. I s s h e C h r y s t l e r' s m o t h e r? 23 A. No. Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 9 1 Q. S h e ' s h i s s t e p m o t h e r? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. O k a y. C h r y s t l e r' s m o t h e r i s H e a t h e r T h i b e a u l t? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. W e r e y o u m a r r i e d t o M s . T h i b e a u l t a t o n e t i m e? 6 A. A t o n e t i m e. 7 Q. A n d y o u w e r e l e g a l l y d i v o r c e d? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. W h e n w a s y o u r d i v o r c e? 10 A. I b e l i e v e i t w a s J a n u a r y o f 2 0 0 6. 11 Q. O k a y. A n d H e a t h e r T h i b e a u l t, i s t h a t C h r y s t l e r' s 12 b i o l o g i c a l m o t h e r? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. W h e n y o u w e r e d i v o r c e d, w a s t h e r e a n y t y p e o f 15 a r r a n g e m e n t a s t o c u s t o d y o f C h r y s t l e r? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. W h a t w a s t h a t a r r a n g e m e n t? 18 A. I h a d p h y s i c a l c u s t o d y, b u t i n o u r d i v o r c e 19 a g r e e m e n t, i t w a s j o i n t c u s t o d y. 20 Q. T h a t m e a n s C h r y s t l e r p r i m a r i l y r e s i d ed w i t h y o u ? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. A n d w a s t h a t s t i l l t h e c a s e i n M a y o f 2 0 1 9? 23 A. Yes. Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 10 1 Q. A l l r i g h t. P r i o r t o M a y o f 2 0 1 9, h a d C h r y s t l e r 2 ever been in any type of counseling or 3 p s y c h i a t r i c t r e a t m e n t o r t h e r a p y? 4 A. I n e e d t o c l a r i f y. 5 Q. S u r e. 6 A. W e a s a b l e n d e d f a m i l y h a d b e e n - - B a r b a r a, 7 m y s e l f, m y t w o s o n s a n d h e r - - B a r b a r a' s s o n 8 Anthony had all been attending since 2010 family 9 c o u n s e l i n g. 10 Q. And was that -- did that continue up and 11 i n c l u d i n g 2 0 1 0 t h r o u g h 2 0 1 9? 12 A. I'm unsure as to when the regular scheduling 13 d i d n' t g o . I know it was until probably at least 14 2 0 1 6 f o r s u r e. I can't recollect how often we 15 c o n t i n u e d a f t e r t h a t. 16 Q. D u r i n g t h e c o u r s e o f t h a t f a m i l y c o u n s e l i n g, w a s 17 Chrystler ever diagnosed with any type of mental 18 c o n d i t i o n? 19 A. No. 20 Q. After these allegations came to light in or 21 a r o u n d M a y o r J u n e o f 2 0 1 9, w a s C h r y s t l e r 22 s u b s e q u e n t l y, m e a n i n g f r o m t h e n t o n o w , d i a g n o s e d 23 w i t h a n y t y p e o f m e n t a l c o n d i t i o n? Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 11 1 A. No. 2 Q. You understand that your son has been criminally 3 a n d c i v i l l y a c c u s e d o f a r a p e? 4 A. Yes. 5 M S . C A S S A R: F o r m. 6 T H E W I T N E S S: Well -- 7 M R . D I N G E L D E Y: O f s e x u a l a s s a u l t, i f y o u p r e f e r. 8 M S . C A S S A R: F o r m. 9 T H E W I T N E S S: H e w a s w h a t? 10 B Y M R . D I N G E L D E Y: 11 Q. A c c u s e d. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. O k a y. Are you, are you familiar with the 14 allegations made by N.J.S. against your son? 15 A. N o t s p e c i f i c a l l y. 16 Q. W e r e y o u a w a r e d u r i n g y o u r s o n ' s j u n i o r y e a r, s o 17 f o r t h e 2 0 1 8 t o ' 1 9 s c h o o l y e a r, t h a t C h r y s t l e r 18 was dating or seeing a female student named 19 N.J.S.? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Were you aware of Chrystler dating anyone during 22 h i s j u n i o r y e a r o f h i g h s c h o o l? 23 A. Yes. Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 12 1 Q. W h o a r e y o u a w a r e o f y o u r s o n d a t i n g? 2 A. I d o n ' t r e c a l l t h e n a m e. I do know he attended a 3 s c h o o l f u n c t i o n w i t h s o m e b o d y. I h a v e a p i c t u r e, 4 a n o l d p i c t u r e i n m y p h o n e. I do not know her 5 n a m e. I c a n n o t r e c a l l. And I believe he went 6 o u t t o e a t a n d h a d d a t e s w i t h o t h e r g i r l s. 7 Q. O k a y. D i d h e - - t o y o u r k n o w l e d g e, d u r i n g h i s 8 j u n i o r y e a r, d i d h e d a t e a g i r l f r o m S w e e t H o m e 9 S c h o o l s? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Other than the allegation by N.J.S., are you 12 aware of any other allegations of rape or sexual 13 misconduct by your son in the general time frame 14 o f 2 0 1 8 t o 2 0 1 9? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Can you tell me about the other allegation that 17 w a s m a d e? 18 A. It was -- there was allegations made by somebody 19 representing and/or a girl who attended Sweet 20 H o m e S c h o o l, a n d I c a n ' t r e c a l l h e r n a m e a t t h e 21 m o m e n t. 22 Q. W h e n d i d y o u l e a r n a b o u t t h o s e a l l e g a t i o n s? 23 A. I d o n ' t r e m e m b e r t h e y e a r. It's been so long Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 13 1 ago. I was contacted by the West Seneca Police 2 D e p a r t m e n t, a d e t e c t i v e, a s k i n g q u e s t i o n s 3 r e g a r d i n g a g i r l f r o m S w e e t H o m e. 4 Q. Did Chrystler give you any information about 5 t h o s e a l l e g a t i o n s? 6 A. No. No. 7 Q. Were you present when he provided information to 8 p o l i c e o r a n y o n e e l s e? 9 A. No. 10 Q. When you learned about the allegation from the 11 g i r l f r o m S w e e t H o m e, w a s t h a t b e f o r e o r a f t e r 12 you learned about the allegations by N.J.S.? 13 A. R e p e a t. 14 Q. When you learned about the Sweet Home -- the 15 a c c u s a t i o n s f r o m t h e w o m a n f r o m S w e e t H o m e, i s 16 t h a t b e f o r e o r a f t e r y o u l e a r ne d a b o u t t h e 17 allegations by N.J.S.? 18 A. B e f o r e. 19 Q. D o y o u k n o w a b o u t h o w l o n g b e f o r e? 20 A. F o u r, f i v e m o n t h s p o s s i b l y. 21 Q. Did you tell anyone about those allegations 22 a g a i n s t C h r y s t l e r, o t h e r t h a n C h r y s t l e r' s l a w y e r? 23 A. No. Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 14 1 Q. Did you tell anyone from West Seneca Schools 2 a b o u t t h e a l l e g a t i o n s t h a t w e r e m a d e? 3 A. No. 4 Q. What was your understanding as to what the 5 a l l e g a t i o n s w e r e? 6 A. T h a t C h r y s t l e r h a d a n a l s e x , I b e l i e v e, w i t h t h i s 7 g i r l. 8 Q. W a s t h e a l l e g a t i o n t h a t i t w a s w i t h o u t c o n s e n t? 9 A. At the time I don't recall whether it was consent 10 or not. 11 Q. D o y o u k n o w t h e a g e o f t h a t g i r l, a p p r o x i m a t e l y? 12 A. I d o n ' t k n o w. 13 Q. Do you know if she was in the same grade or 14 s i m i l a r g r a d e t o C h r y s t l e r? 15 A. I d o n o t k n o w. 16 Q. W h a t w o u l d b e y o u r - - I j u s t w a n t t o c l a r i f y. 17 You knew there was police involvement and they 18 w e r e - - u l t i m a t e l y y o u r s o n w a s c h a r ge d ? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. A n d i f y o u k n e w a b o u t t h i s, w h a t w o u l d - - w o u l d 21 you have an understanding as to what the criminal 22 c o m p o n e n t w a s o f t h a t s i t u a t i o n? 23 A. A t t h e t i m e, n o . Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 15 1 Q. Do you recall a prior incident when Chrystler was 2 in approximately sixth or seventh grade when he 3 d i s a p p e a r e d f o r a p e r i o d o f t i m e, m a y b e 4 t w e n t y- f o u r h o u r s, a n d p o l i c e w e r e i n v o l v e d i n 5 looking for him? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you remember approximately when that was? 8 A. I h a v e n o i d e a. 9 Q. W a s h e i n e l e m e n t a r y s c h o o l, m i d d l e s c h o o l, h i g h 10 s c h o o l? 11 A. I d o n ' t r e c a l l. 12 Q. B u t y o u r e c a l l h e w e n t m i s s i n g. Do you know how 13 l o n g h e w e n t m i s s i n g? 14 A. I believe it was one day. 15 Q. Do you recall anything about the circumstances of 16 t h a t d i s a p p e a r a n c e? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Can you tell me what you recall about the 19 c i r c u m s t a n c e s? 20 A. H e h a d n e v e r c o m e h o m e, a n d I g o t c o n t a c t e d b y 21 W e s t S e n e c a P o l i c e. I remember I had a picture 22 on a tablet and that led me to believe that it 23 w a s a v a c a n t b u i l d i n g a t t h e e n d o f m y s t r e e t. Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 16 1 And then the police and I went there and he was 2 f o u n d t h e r e. 3 Q. W a s h e f o u n d t h e r e w i t h a y o u n g w o m a n? 4 A. I d o n ' t k n o w. 5 Q. Y o u d i d n' t e n t e r t h e b u i l di n g w i t h t h e p o l i c e? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did you ever learn he was -- ever learn or were 8 t o l d h e w a s i n t h e r e w i t h a y o u n g w o m a n? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. W h o t o l d y o u t h a t? 11 A. T h e p o l i c e. 12 Q. D o y o u k n o w t h e i d e n t i t y o f t h a t y o u n g w o m a n? 13 A. No. 14 Q. W h e n y o u s a y y o u h a d a p i c t u r e, h o w d i d y o u g e t a 15 p i c t u r e o f h i m i n a n a b a n d o n e d b u i l d i n g? 16 A. I t w a s l i k e s o c i a l m e d i a o r S n a p - - n o t S n a p c h a t. 17 S o m e t h i n g o n s o c i a l m e d i a o r a t a b l e t. I don't 18 k n o w i f i t w a s a t e x t m e s s a g e. Some -- it was on 19 a t a b l e t. 20 Q. Chrystler may have posted a picture and you saw 21 i t a n d t h e n r e c o g n i z ed t h e b u i l d i n g? 22 A. I b e l i e v e t h a t' s a c c u r a t e. 23 Q. O k a y. After that incident -- was that during the Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 17 1 s c h o o l y e a r o r d u r i n g a s u m m e r b r e a k? Do you 2 know when it was? 3 A. I d o n ' t r e c a l l. 4 Q. O t h e r t h a n t h e p o l i c e w h o w e r e i n v o l v e d, d i d y o u 5 t e l l a n y o n e a b o u t t h a t i n c i d e n t? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did you tell anyone from West Seneca Schools 8 a b o u t t h e i n c i d e n t? 9 A. No. 10 M R . H A L L: I ' m s o r r y. I m i s s e d t h a t. What did you 11 say? 12 M R . D I N G E L D E Y: I said did you tell anyone from West 13 S e n e c a S c h o o l s a b o u t t h a t i n c i d e n t. 14 T H E W I T N E S S: No. 15 B Y M R . D I N G E L D E Y: 16 Q. The young woman -- going back to the young woman 17 f r o m S w e e t H o m e. To your knowledge had she ever 18 b e e n i n y o u r h o u s e? 19 A. A t w h a t p o i n t i n t i m e? 20 Q. P r i o r t o t h e r a p e a l l e g a t i o n c o m i n g t o l i g h t. 21 Or, the sexual misconduct allegation coming to 22 l i g h t. 23 A. Hers or -- Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 18 1 Q. W a s s h e e v e r i n y o u r h o u s e? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. D o y o u k n o w h o w s h e g o t t h e r e? 4 A. I b r o u g h t h e r t h e r e. 5 Q. W a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n di n g t h a t s h e w a s a f r i e n d, a 6 g i r l f r i e n d? What was your understanding when you 7 did so? 8 A. S o m e b o d y t h a t C h r y s t l e r k n e w f r o m F a c e b o o k, I 9 b e l i e v e. 10 Q. A n d d i d s h e s p e n d t h e n i g h t a t y o u r h o m e? 11 A. No. 12 Q. H o w l o n g w a s s h e p r e s e n t a t y o u r h o m e? 13 A. P o s s i b l y t w o h o u r s. 14 Q. W h i l e s h e w a s t h e r e, d i d s h e m a k e a n y c o m p l a i n t s 15 o r r a i s e a n y c o n c e r ns t o y o u a b o u t C h r y s t l e r' s 16 c o n d u c t? 17 A. No. 18 Q. A n d h o w d i d s h e g e t h o m e? 19 A. I d r o v e h e r t o h e r g r a n d m o t h e r' s h o u s e t h a t s h e 20 said it was. 21 Q. To your knowledge had Chrystler ever been to the 22 h o m e o r g r a n d m o t h e r' s h o m e f r o m t h e w o m a n f r o m 23 S w e e t H o m e? Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 19 1 A. No. 2 Q. Following -- going back to the incident where 3 C h r y s t l e r w e n t m i s s i n g. Do you know if there was 4 a n y p o l i c e i n v e s t i g a t i o n o r a n y c h a r g es f o l l o w i n g 5 h i m b e i n g f o u n d i n t h a t a b a n d o n e d h o m e? 6 A. T h e r e w e r e n o n e. 7 Q. O t h e r t h a n t h e i n c i d e n t i n v o l vi n g N . J . S . a n d t h e 8 i n c i d e n t i n v o l v i n g t h e w o m a n f r o m S w e e t H o m e, a r e 9 you aware of any other allegations of your son 10 conducting himself in a criminal or inappropriate 11 s e x u a l m a n n e r w i t h a n y o t h e r w o m e n? 12 A. No. 13 M S . C A S S A R: F o r m. 14 B Y M R . D I N G E L D E Y: 15 Q. After the allegations were made by N.J.S., what 16 w a s t h e r e s o l u t i o n w i t h C h r y s t l e r' s p r e s e n c e a t 17 s c h o o l? W a s h e t a k e n o u t o f s c h o o l? 18 A. In early September I believe -- and I'm trying to 19 r e m e m b e r. I t h i n k i t w a s 2 0 1 9. The beginning of 20 t w e l f t h g r a d e. C h r y s t l e r, m y s e l f a n d t h e 21 principal of the school met, and we were advised 22 that he would not be attending the school for his 23 t w e l f t h- g r a d e e d u c a t i o n a n d t h a t t h e s c h o o l Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 20 1 arranged tutoring at the West Seneca Public 2 Library so that he could complete his 3 t w e l f t h- g r a d e e d u c a t i o n a n d g r a d u a t e. The 4 p r i n c i p a l w a s a d a m a n t a b o u t h i m g r a d u a t i n g. 5 Q. O k a y. And is it your understanding and so 6 Chrystler -- my understanding is Chrystler was 7 not present at school physically during his 8 s e n i o r y e a r. 9 A. C o r r e c t. 10 Q. O k a y. 11 A. And I -- 12 Q. From the time the allegations came to light in or 13 a r o u n d M a y o r J u n e o r t h e r e a b o u t s o f 2 0 1 9, d i d 14 C h r y s t l e r h a v e t o s p e n d a n y t i m e, y o u k n o w, i n a 15 l o c k- u p o r a j a i l- t y p e f a c i l i t y? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Was he on any type of probation or any type of 18 p h y s i c a l r e s t r i c t i o n s w h i l e h i s c h a r g es w e r e 19 p e n d i n g? 20 A. N o t a t t h a t t i m e. 21 Q. U l t i m a t e l y a s a r e s u l t o f a p l e a, w a s h e o n 22 p r o b a t i o n f o r a p e r i o d o f t i m e? 23 A. Yes. Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 21 1 Q. Do you know what that length of probation was? 2 A. O r i g i n a l l y o n e y e a r. 3 Q. Do you -- were you familiar with the nature of 4 y o u r s o n ' s p l e a, o r n o ? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. W h a t w a s h i s p l e a? 7 A. N o t g u i l ty . 8 Q. U l t i m a t e l y d i d h e t a k e a p l e a d e a l? 9 A. I don't, I don't know the legal arrangements of 10 h o w i t w e n t. I know the judge told him he had 11 o n e y e a r o f p r o b a t i o n. 12 Q. Did you have to testify at all in any criminal 13 proceedings regarding either of those rape or 14 sexual misconduct allegations -- 15 A. No. 16 Q. - - b y e i t h e r o f t h o s e t w o w o m e n? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you recall anything about that conversation 19 w i t h t h e p r i n c i p a l i n t h e b e g i nn i n g o f y o u r s o n ' s 20 t w e l f t h- g r a d e y e a r, o t h e r t h a n t h e f a c t t h a t y o u r 21 son would receive an education but it would be 22 o f f o f s c h o o l g r o u n d s? 23 A. I believe there was going to be a -- there was a Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 22 1 h e a r i n g, a s u p e r i n t e n d e n t h e a r i n g w h e r e t h e y d i d 2 t h e l e g a l s t u f f r e g a r d i n g h i s s u s p e n s i o n. 3 Q. D i d y o u h a v e t o a p p e a r f o r t h a t? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. D i d y o u g i v e t e s t i m o n y? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. D o y o u r e c a l l w h a t y o u t e s t i f i e d a b o u t? 8 A. N o t s p e c i f i c a l l y. 9 Q. Do you recall telling either the principal or the 10 superintendent anything about those prior 11 i n c i d e n t s, e i t h e r t h e i n c i d e n t w h e n y o u r s o n w e n t 12 missing and was found in the abandoned building 13 o r t h e a l l e g a t i o n s b y t h e S w e e t H o m e s t u d e n t? 14 A. The only thing I recall hearing regarding any 15 misconduct was somebody at the meeting with the 16 s c h o o l w a n t e d t o b r i n g u p t h e c h a r g es t h a t w e r e 17 p e n d i n g, I g u e s s, a n d I h a d m e n t i o ne d t h a t i t w a s 18 not relevant to his suspension based on what the 19 p r i n c i p a l, C h r y s t l e r a n d I h a d t a l k e d a b o u t i n 20 t h e l a t e A u g u s t, e a r l y S e p t e m b e r m e e t i n g. 21 Q. As far as -- was Chrystler a student at West 22 S e n e c a W e s t H i g h S c h o o l f o r a l l f o u r y e a rs o f 23 h i g h s c h o o l, o t h e r t h a n h i m b e i n g h o m e s c h o o l e d Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 23 1 or -- 2 A. C o r r e c t. 3 Q. - - t h e r e m o t e l e a r n i n g? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Did he -- to your knowledge did he have any 6 d i s c i p l i n a r y h i s t o r y a t s c h o o l? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What was -- what would those incidents be that 9 you're aware of? 10 A. The notes that got sent home where he got 11 d e t e n t i o n a n d s t u f f l i k e t h a t r e g a r d i n g h o m e w o r k. 12 I t h i n k i t w a s h o m e w o r k, t a l k i n g i n c l a s s, 13 p o s s i b l y l a t e o r a b s e n t. 14 Q. Anything that you were aware of as far as 15 discipline in school regarding any violence or 16 s e x u a l- t y p e b e h a v i o r? 17 A. No. 18 Q. W h a t a b o u t a n y t h i n g r e g a r d i n g t h r e a t s, t h r e a t s o f 19 v i o l e n c e o r s e x u a l b e h a v i o r? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Prior to the allegations coming to light from 22 N.J.S., were you aware of who she was at all? 23 A. No. Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 24 1 Q. W a s C h r y s t l e r i n v o l v e d i n a n y s p o r ts o r 2 a c t i v i t i es a t s c h o o l? W h e n I s a y s c h o o l, I m e a n 3 h i g h s c h o o l. 4 A. N o t s c h o o l r e l a t e d o n e s. 5 M R . D I N G E L D E Y: I m a y l o o k a t m y n o t e s. That may be 6 a l l I h a v e, u n l e s s a n y b o d y e l s e h a s q u e s t i o ns a n d 7 t h e n I m a y h a v e a f o l l o w- u p o r t w o . 8 M R . K R U L L: I h a v e n o q u e s t i o n s. 9 M R . L E N T: I h a v e s o m e f o l l o w- u p . 10 11 E X A M I N A T I O N B Y M R . L E N T: 12 13 Q. M r . S t o r t z, m y n a m e i s T o m L e n t a n d I r e p r e s e n t 14 H e a t h e r. How old was Chrystler when he last 15 l i v e d i n t h e s a m e h o u s e h o l d a s H e a t h e r? 16 A. It would have been sometime -- I believe it was 17 prior to January of '06. Because his mother had 18 bought a house in North Tonawanda before our 19 d i v o r c e w a s c o m p l e t e d, a n d I r e m e m b e r I g o t m y 20 own apartment in February of '07. And prior to 21 t h a t, w e h a d l i v e d i n o u r m a t r i m o n i a l h o m e u n t i l 22 t h e n. But she had bought a house and moved out. 23 I cannot remember when she bought the house and Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 25 1 she physically separated from me, but it was 2 p r i o r t o o u r d i v o r c e. 3 Q. Do you remember how old Chrystler was at the 4 t i m e? 5 A. At the time when his mother and I no longer lived 6 t o g e t h e r, h e w o u l d h a v e b e e n, h e w o u l d h a v e b e e n 7 f o u r. 8 Q. O k a y. 9 A. M a y b e t h r e e a n d a h a l f, f o u r. 10 Q. A l l r i g h t. A n d a s a r e s u l t o f t h e d i v o r c e, y o u 11 h a d p r i m a r y c u s t o d y, h e l i v e d w i t h y o u ? 12 A. S i n c e t h e n, y e s . 13 Q. A l l r i g h t. A n d w h e n h e w a s e n r o l le d i n t h e 14 s c h o o l s y s t e m f r o m t h a t t i m e f o r w a r d, w a s h i s 15 address -- was the address on file with the 16 s c h o o l t y p i c a l l y y o u r a d d r e s s? 17 A. C o r r e c t. 18 Q. A n d h i s r e p o r t c a r d s w o u l d c o m e t o y o u r h o m e? 19 A. C o r r e c t. C o p i e s w o u l d g o t o t h e m o t h e r. I 20 b e l i e v e w e r e q u e s t e d c o p i e s. 21 Q. O k a y. Did Heather ever complain to you at any 22 time that there was an occasion where she stopped 23 getting communication from the school about Sue Ann Simonin Court Reporting FILED: ERIE COUNTY CLERK 11/01/2023 01:43 PM INDEX NO. 805265/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 95 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 11/01/2023 26 1 C h r y s t l e r' s p r o g r e s s, r e p o r t c a r d s, t h a t s o r t o f 2 t h i n g? 3 A. I believe so. 4 Q. W h a t w a s t h e d a t e o f y o u r m a r r i a g e t o B a r b a r a? 5 Y o u d o n ' t h a v e t o g i v e t h e s p e c i f i c d a t e. She's 6 r i g h t t h e r e. 7 A. J u l y o f 2 0 1 0. 8 Q. The pressure is on. 9 A. J u l y o f 2 0 1 0. 10 Q. A l l r i g h t. You had mentioned that you were in I 11 guess family counseling from about 2010 I think 12 t h r o u g h a r o u n d 2 0 1 6. Was that the result of any 13 s p e c i f i c i s s u e s i n t h e f a m i l y, o r w h a t p r o m p t e d 14 t h a t t o o c c u r? 15 A. T y p i c a l b l e n d e d f a m i l y. T h e c o u n s e