Preview
510-658-3600
oD ON Dak wD YN
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oI A AP OoHS EH SCO RANA HAR wD NHE DS
MARK S. KANNETT (SBN 104572)
EMILY D. BERGSTROM (SBN 191395)
MARCIA L. RAYMOND (SBN 215655)
BECHERER KANNETT & SCHWEITZER
1255 Powell Street
Emeryville, CA 94608
Telephone: (510) 658-3600
Facsimile: (510) 658-1151
Attorneys for Defendant
DILLINGHAM CONSTRUCTION N.A., INC.
ELECTRONICALLY
FILED
Superior Court of California,
County of San Francisco
FEB 26 2010
Clerk of the Court
BY: ANNIE PASCUAL
Deputy Clerk
SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO — UNLIMITED JURISDICTION
JOYCE JUELCH and NORMAN JUELCH,
SR.,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ASBESTOS DEFENDANTS (BP) As
Reflected on Exhibits B, B-1, C; and DOES
1-8500,
Defendants.
eS SS SS SS SS
CASE NO. CGC 09-275212
EXHIBIT C TO THE DECLARATION OF
DEFENDANT DILLINGHAM
CONSTRUCTION N.A., INC.’S MOTION
FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT ~
Date: March 18, 2010
Time: 9:30 a.m.
Dept.: 220
Judge: Hon. Harold E. Kahn
Trial Date: April 5, 2010
Complaint May 20, 2009
Filed:
’ MARCIA L. RAYMOND IN SUPPORT OF
EXHIBIT C TO THE DECLARATION OF MARCIA.L. RAYMOND IN SUPPORT OF DEFENDANT DILLINGHAM
CONSTRUCTION N.A., INC.’S MQTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENTExhibit CoO Oo © NN DW oO fF BO NM =
= 6 c=
=
IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO
--000—-
JOYCE JUELCH and NORMAN JUELCH,
Plaintiffs,
No. 275212
vs.
ASBESTOS DEFENDANTS,
Defendants.
VIDEOTAPED TRIAL PRESERVATION TESTIMONY OF
JOYCE JUELCH
(Pages 1 to 115, inclusive)
Taken before SANDRA M. LEE
CSR No. 9971
September 15, 2009=
oo oa NN DO oO Rh WH DN
31
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. BRAYTON:
Q. For that sort of work, taking the
insulation -- old insulation material off, did
that — was there any tendency for that work to 09:52
fall more to the journeyman or to the apprentice?
A. Most of the time -- well, it could be for
both. | mean, if we were allowed to -- usually
your first-year apprentices didn't do too much with
the materials and stuff. When you became a 09:52
second-year, usually you were given jobs to do
besides your delivering materials, you know, to the
mechanics. You would get small jobs to do to learn
how to, you know, remove the insulation and apply
it and -- but it was usually both mechanics and 09:53
apprentices would be doing it.
Qa. Do you recall the first place you went out
on an insulation job?
—_—_——
A. Yes. Shell.
Q. When you say "Shell," what are you talking 09:53
about?
A. Shell Refinery.
Q. Whereabouts is that located?
A. | keep wanting to say Pittsburg, but that
was the other one. Martinez? 09:53
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Q. You've named a couple of places.
lt was up in the North Bay Area?
A. Yes.
Q. Who were you working for when you first
went out to work at Shell? 09:53
A. Plant.
Q. And when you say "Plant" —
A. Plant Insulation.
Q. What kind of work did you perform there on
that first job you did for Plant out at Shell Oil? 09:54
A. My job was to bring the material to the
mechanics and see that they had all that they
required and clean up after them. And basically
because a lot of their work was up off of a ladder
up on the pipe racks, and so | would kind of stand 09:54
there and hand the material up to them. That's
usually what | did.
Q Did -- when insulators worked at a
location like the Shell Oil Refinery, were they the
only people working out at a job site, or were 09:55
there other trades working at the same time?
A. No. There was other trades that was out
there.
MR. POESCHL: Belated objection; vague,
ambiguous, overbroad, foundation. 09:55
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MR. SCHAEFER: Also leading.
BY MR. BRAYTON:
Q. Can you describe the -- what sorts of
other trades would be working in the area where
insulators were performing their work? 09:55
MR. POESCHL: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: Pipefitters and welders.
BY MR. BRAYTON:
Qa. What kind of work did pipefitters do?
A. They were working on the valves. 09:55
Qa. _ Specifically what kind of things would
they be doing to the valves?
MR. BROWN: Question is vague and
overbroad.
THE WITNESS: They were changing the 09:56
valves.
MR. POESCHL: Gary, while we're between
questions here, may we have a stipulation with
regard to objections?
MR. BRAYTON: - We have one. 09:56
MR. POESCHL: Oh, we have one.
MS. BAKER: Could you read her response?
(Record read.)
BY MR. BRAYTON:
Q. Were you in a position where you could see 09:56
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other person you indicated, I'd say, was in the
area of eight to ten feet from you.
BY MR. BRAYTON:
Q. When pipefitters were doing their work
that you observed, did they sometimes work on areas 09:59
where the existing pipe and valves and equipment
that they were working on had existing insulation
already on the material?
MR. POESCHL: Objection; leading, vague
and ambiguous, overbroad, lacks foundation. 10:00
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. BRAYTON:
Qa. Is that something you could see?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there a procedure that -- from your 10:00
training that you understood was supposed to be
followed when there was existing insulation in an
area where a pipefitter was to perform work?
A. Usually the insulators were told, and we'd
go out and take off the material where the 10:00
pipefitters were going to work at. That's
generally what was supposed to take place. It's
because it was the insulator's responsibility to
remove the insulation as well as replace the
insulation. That was our job. 10:00
Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/15/2009=
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Q. Was that procedure where the insulators
always took off the existing insulation -- was that
always followed?
A. No.
Qa. Would pipefitters take off insulation 10:00
themselves?
A. Yes, they would.
Q. Do you recall who employed the pipefitters
when you were out on this initial job at the Shell
CO oO NN OD mH BRB WD
Oil facility? 10:01
A. Dillingham.
Qa How were you able to tell that the
pipefitters were employed by Dillingham?
A. From their — their clothing and their
automobile that was parked there. It had 10:01
"Dillingham" on it. Their hat.
Qa. _ Did you observe Dillingham pipefitters
a
removing insulation from the pipes and equipment
they were working on while you were working out
there at Shell? 10:01
A. Yes.. They clipped the wires, and they got
the insulation dropped to the ground. And I
mentioned something to them, and they didn't like.
it, what | had to say, so...
Q. Did they stop doing it? 10:02
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A. Yes.
Qa. What was the air like around these
laborers when they were doing this sweep-up you've
just desctibed?
MR. SCHAEFER: Vague. 10:03
THE WITNESS: It was very dusty.
BY MR. BRAYTON:
Q. You mentioned the process of how
pipefitters went about removing gaskets.
Did you see them replace old gaskets with 10:04
new gaskets?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have an opportunity to observe
anything that indicated what the brand of the new
gaskets that were being applied? 10:04
A. Yes.
MR. SCHAEFER: Leading, overbroad, calls
for speculation.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. BRAYTON:
Q. What was it that you -- what was it you
were able to observe?
A. The name on the gasket was Garlock.
Q. Where -- when you talk about a gasket and
a name appearing, where do you recall seeing the 10:04
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name Garlock on the new gasket material?
A. They were -- they were cutting a gasket
off of a sheet, and the sheet had "Garlock" written
on it.
Q. The way you've moved your hand seems to 10:05
suggest that -- you tell me if I'm wrong —- the
name Garlock would appear on multiple locations --
A. Right.
Qa. —on the sheet?
A. On the sheet. 10:05
MR. SCHAEFER: Leading.
BY MR. BRAYTON:
Qa Is that right?
A. Yes.
Qa Do you recall what they used to cut the 10:05
material off of the sheet of the roll of gasket
material?
MR. SCHAEFER: Vague.
THE WITNESS: They had a pair of shears
that they took out of their toolbox. 10:05
BY MR. BRAYTON:
Qa And was there additional work that had to
be done to get the sheet material to work and fit
as a gasket?
MR. SCHAEFER: Leading, lacks foundation. 10:05
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BY MR. BRAYTON:
Q. You mentioned the very first place you
worked, that being Shell Oil, and that was for
Plant Insulation.
Did you work at Shell Oil more than once? 10:07
A. Yes.
Q. Was that — the times you worked there,
was that for Plant?
A. It was for Plant.
Qa. Was that all during your apprenticeship 10:08
period from '82 through '85?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you work at any other refineries or
industrial sites for Plant during your initial
apprenticeship period? 10:08
A. Yes. It was --
Q. Which ones can you think of?
A. Dow Chemical and Tosco.
Qa. When you first started out as an
apprentice in 1982, can you tell me what kind of _ 10:08
respiratory equipment — protection equipment was
provided to you when you were performing your work?
A. We were issued 3M paper masks.
a. Can | ask you to describe those a little
bit more? 10:08
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A. It's just a paper mask that fits over --
over your nose and mouth, and it has one -- one
kind of, like, rubber -- | call it rubber band that
fits around your head.
Qa Would these paper masks -- were these 10:09
fitted particularly for, like, an individual's
face?
ee
A. No.
Qa ~ Where did you get these masks?
A. _ Out of the change room. They had aboxin 10:09
there, and they all came from the same box. There
was No sizes.
Q. Everybody used the same —-
A. "Everybody used the same size.
Qa There was a single elastic band, and they 10:09
secured it around —
A. Single elastic band that secured it around
your head.
Qa. Other than the -- what you described as
paper, was there any other sort of filtration, any 10:09
kind of canister or --
A. No.
Qa -- separate filter that was associated
with this mask?
A. No. 10:09
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Qa And it certainly doesn't sound like the
kind of mask where they were supplying you outside
separate air or anything like that.
A. No.
MR. BROWN: Question is vague. 10:10
THE WITNESS: No.
MR. SCHAEFER: Also leading.
BY MR. BRAYTON:
Q. You mentioned working at Tosco Refinery
with Plant during your apprenticeship period. 10:10
Where was that located?
A Tosco was in...
Qa. Did you work at Tosco a single time or
several times?
A. | worked there -- | think | worked there 10:10
twice. I'm really not positive, because | worked
at Dow -- no. | think | worked at Tosco one time.
Q. Were there other trades working along with
you when you worked at Tosco?
A. Yes. 10:11
Q. Do you recall who employed -- were the
pipefitters working there?
A. There was pipefitters, welders.
Q. Do you recall who employed the pipefitters
that were working at Tosco when you were working — 10:11
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there?
MR. BROWN: Lacks foundation, calls for
speculation.
THE WITNESS: At this moment, | can't
remember.
BY MR. BRAYTON:
Qa. Did the -- what kind of work were the
pipefitters doing there?
A. They were working on the valves and the
pipes. They were putting in some new pipes and 10:12
working on the valves.
Q. Did the work that they performed include
- the gasket replacement you previously described?
A. Yes.
MR. SCHAEFER: Leading. 10:12
THE WITNESS: They were replacing gaskets,
and they were bringing new pipe into the old pipe.
BY MR. BRAYTON:
Q. Did the pipefitters at Tosco -- is there
anything different about the way they went about 10:12
removing old gaskets and what you previously
described?
MR. SCHAEFER: Vague, overbroad.
MR. BROWN: The question misstates the
witness's prior testimony. It's also leading, also 10:12
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a. When you started up with working for
Norcal, what sort of respiratory protective
equipment was provided to you for your work for
them?
A. There was only one job that we had 10:53
actually went out on, and it was considered a
complete ripoff, which is it was asbestos and we
had to tent it off and everything. Everything was
kind of on the up and up is what I call it) The
right equipment was out there, and — but priorto 10:53
any other job, we were.given masks, the paper
ee
masks.
ee
Q. Was there anything different in terms of ,
the equipment that was normally furnished to you by
—
Norcal that was different than the masks you're 10:54
describing that you normally got from Norcal; any
difference from the masks --
A. __No.
Q. -- you described?
A. It was stil! just the 3M one-band paper 10:54
mask.
Qa You mentioned there was a single job site
that you recall during your work for Norcal where a
different sort of procedure was used —
A. Yes. 10:54
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STATE OF CALIFORNIA )
)
COUNTY OF ALAMEDA _ )
1, SANDRA M. LEE, do hereby certify:
That JOYCE JUELCH, in the foregoing deposition
named, was present and by me sworn as a witness in the
above-entitled action at the time and place therein
specified;
That said deposition was taken before me at said
time and place, and was taken down in shorthand by me, a
Certified Shorthand Reporter of the State of California,
and was thereafter transcribed into typewriting, and
that the foregoing transcript constitutes a full, true
and correct report of said deposition and of the
proceedings that took place;
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, | have hereunder subscribed
my hand this ist day of October 2009.
Pindar M. tu
SANDRA M. LEE, CSR No. 9971
State of California
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oclUcOOmUlUlCOMCUNCUCOOlUCUCUCOCUCUDBClUMAGN
IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO
---0Qo-—
JOYCE JUELCH and NORMAN JUELCH,
Plaintiffs,
No. 275212
vs.
ASBESTOS DEFENDANTS,
Defendants.
DISCOVERY DEPOSITION OF JOYCE JUELCH
VOLUME |
(Pages 1 to 184, inclusive)
Taken before SANDRA M. LEE
CSR No. 9971
September 16, 2009olUcOoUlUCOUmMWUNLCLUCUCOOFUUCUCOCCULRlCOC DN
yy DS NY HB NY YN BSB BSB sae sae se se saa ase =
a fF wo He = FG 6 DN Do fF Ww NY =
A. Through my local, Local 16, out of our office.
Q. And how did they do that; did they call you on
the phone or send you a letter and say —
A. On the phone.
Qa. Somebody called you on the phone.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And they said, "Miss Juelch, we want you to go
report to" -- where?
A. Whatever place they're sending me to. Like, |
was sent out to Shell, and | was to report to who would
be my foreman out there.
Q. When you went out there, did you have an
understanding that there was asbestos in the refinery?
A = __No.
MR. BRAYTON: Asked and answered.
BY MR. BROWN:
Q. No one from Plant told you that there was
asbestos anyplace in the refinery?
ee ee
A. The only thing that we were told is when we
went out there, we had to wait at the gate because we __
had to be driven back to where our job site was. We
waited there for a truck to come and pick us up, and
we'd go to the shack that belonged to Plant. And that's
eee eee eee
where we got our orders of basically where our job sites
were going to be at. And no, nothing was mentioned in
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regards to asbestos.
Q. So your supervisor at Plant didn't tell you
there was any asbestos anyplace in the refinery?
A. No.
—_—
Q. Correct?
A. That's correct.
a. And the person who dispatched you from the
ee A See esessSs esses
union didn't tell you that there was asbestos anyplace
in the refinery correct?
A. They said nothing about asbestos.
Qa. Did anybody from Shell provide you with any
materials to use? _
ee
A. They were the ones that -- the material that we
put -- our pipe covering, is this what you're talking
about, the pipe covering?
Q. Yes.
A. Because that's what we were doing, is pipe
covering. The pipe covering was — was at a certain
area at the plant. The apprentices, which was myself
and a couple of others, we'd go and get it, put itina
truck and bring it back to the job site.
Q. You mentioned before there was a Plant yard at
the facility, correct?
A. Yes. They had a Plant yard.
Qa. Did they have a trailer in this, quote,
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unquote, yard?
A. Yes.
Q. They also stored insulating materials in this
Plant yard, correct?
A. No. We had to go elsewhere to get the
material.
Qa. Where did you go to get the material?
A. They had a particular area that was not in the
same place where the trailer was. It was a little ways
away from the trailer. That's the reason we'd have to
take the truck and go there, pick up the material and
bring it back to the job sites.
Q. Who purchased - well, the insulation that you
were using didn't contain asbestos, right?
MR. BRAYTON: New insulation that she was --
BY MR. BROWN:
Q. The new insulation that you were involved with
in installing, as the apprentice, you would go and get
it and set it up and take it to the mechanics, right?
A. Take it to the mechanics, yes.
Q. That insulation did not contain asbestos,
correct?
MR. BRAYTON: According to what you were
told.
THE WITNESS: According to what | was told, it
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was not asbestos.
a
BY MR. BROWN:
Q. And who told you that?
A. My boss.
Q. And that was someone who was employed by Plant;
is that correct?
—_———_——_—
A. That's correct.
Q. Did you have any reason to disbelieve what
were told?
A. The boxes were new. They weren't old. |
u—
figured it was fairly new material.
Q. Did it -- and this was in 1982, correct?
A Yes.
Q. And did the box say "nonasbestos-containing"?
A. | don't recall it saying anything like that.
Q. Do you recall what it said on the box?
A. Just the name, the company. It was "Owens &
Corning" and the size of the pipe covering and — what
else did it say? The length.
Q. Now, how many people were in your crew? _.
MR. BRAYTON: You're talking about this very
first time?
MR. BROWN: I'm only talking about this first
time --
THE WITNESS: The first time going out there --
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BY MR. BROWN:
Qa. -- when you were turned out as an apprentice.
A. -- | think there was probably about -- about
ten mechanics, and | think, if | recall right, there was
four apprentices. Because | was a first-year
they also had two third-year apprentices out there.
Qa. Were you doing turn-around or maintenance work
or new construction?
A. They were actually -- I'm trying to think what
they were doing. They were taking off some material
because they were working on -- some of them were
working on -- the pipefitters were working on valves, so
ee eee
they were taking off the material, the lines that were
attached to the valves. And they would remove that, and
then when the pipefitters got through doing their job,
they would come back and put the material back on.
Q. So were the Plant mechanics and apprentices
removing thermal insulation?
A. No. They were not supposed to. But there was
a couple times that they did themselves, but it wasn't
Plant. it wasn't Plant that was doing it.
Q. Did you --
A. It was a different company.
Q. Did you remove thermal insulation there?
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A. Myself?
Q. Yes.
A. No. It was the mechanic that | was bringing
the material to.
Qa. Once the work was done on these valves, then
the Plant insulators came in and reinsulated the valves,
correct?
ee
A. We did, yes.__
Q. Now, this job was being done ona
time-and-materials?
—_—_——
MR. BRAYTON: Calls for speculation, lacks
foundation.
If you know.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
——__
BY MR. BROWN:
Qa. Well, while you were working in the trade, it
was not common just to have the insulators standing
around waiting for someone to finish doing a job?
A. Oh, no. You'd go someplace else.
Q. Right.
On this particular job, when the materials were
removed and work was done on the valves, the Plant
people were generally somewhere else, correct? That
would include you; you were someplace else, correct?
eee eee eee eee eee
A. Yes.
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Q. So when whatever was being removed was removed,
_——-
except for the time you talked about the mechanic
removing something, you were somewhere else, correct?
MR. BRAYTON: Vague.
THE WITNESS: | can say that times that the _
other crafts were doing their job, | was in that area
because my people were up here. There's lines down
here, there's lines up here and my people would be up
here (indicating). Because usually we tried to stay in
a generalized area until them jobs were done.
MR. BRAYTON: If | could make a record, the
witness was indicating as she spoke there were lines
down here, up here and up here. She indicated three
different levels with hand motions. And when she spoke
about where her people were, she spoke of one of the
higher levels. She seemed to be indicating one of the
higher levels.
- BY MR. BROWN:
Qa. Where people were was dependent on the type of
work that was being done, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And not every job was the same, correct?
A. No.
Q. Is that correct?
A. That's correct.
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a. So if pipefitters were removing a valve and _
reinstalling a new valve and had removed insulation in
order to do that work, the Plant crew would not be there
waiting for the pipefitters to get done before
reinstailing insulation on that valve; isn't that
correct?
A. They're not going to stand there and wait for
them to get done.
Qa. So once the valve is in place and the line is
tested and it passes the inspection, then it's approved
to be reinsulated, right?
A. That's correct.
Q. And then the Plant people would come in and do
their work of reinsulating the flange or the valve or
whatever, correct?
eee
A. Yes.
Q. And that's when you would have to get the
SS
materials, bring them out for the mechanics and get it
all staged for them to install, correct?
A. Yes. .
Q. You talked to us the other day, and you told us
eet
you also did some work at Tosco; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. That's at the Avon Refinery?
A. Yes.
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Q. Did you work at any other Tosco-owned facility?
A. The only other place was Dow Chemical, was what
| worked at. Tosco is the only...
Q. But Dow wasn't owned by Tosco?
A. No.
Q. Did you work in the refinery proper?
A. In the refinery.
Q And in order to get into the refinery, you have
to go through a checkpoint; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Qa And then there's a Plant yard on Solano Way,
tight, that's as you're driving through the refinery on
Solano would be off to the left, right?
A. Yes.
Q. In that yard, Plant had a trailer, right?
A. I'm trying to think. Yes.
Q. They also stored -- and they had boxes of
material stored in that yard as well, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And when were you at Tosco in Avon?
A. I think in '83.
es
Q. Is this before or during the time when you were
doing research on asbestos?
A. You know, | didn't really start looking until
my third year. It was before | started researching.
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Qa. How long, days or weeks, did you work at T:
in 1983?
A. Seemed like | was out there a couple of months.
| think it was just a couple of months.
Qa. What project were you working on?
A. I'm trying to think of which one. I didn't
really know the names of the different projects. It was
one of the — | call it the building as you're coming
in. It's quite elevated. It's pretty high. | don't
know what unit it is.
Q. Where was it located? When | say "Solano Way,"
do you know what street that is?
A. I do. | believe it's the one that is facing it
because of when we came in.
Qa. Did you drive all the way down Solano Way?
A. Yeah. You go all the way down, and then you
come in through some gates. Then you come all the way
back down this way, then back (indicating). | don't
know how to explain it.
Qa. We're not going to explain that for the record,
but what | want to know is: Was this an office
building?
A. No. It was -- it was opened up, and it was,
like, different levels of where there was pipes. And
that's on each one of these levels, and --
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Q. There's potential exposures to vapors and gases
in the refinery that are just byproducts of the refining
process; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Qa. But when you were dispatched from -- and you
understood when you went out there that working in the
refinery, or Shell or any chemical plant or anything, is
a potentially dangerous place?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew and appreciated and understood that?
A. Yes.
Qa. When you got the call from the dispatch, and |
want to be specific about this, did the person say to
you "This is an oil refinery. It's been there for many
years. There's asbestos in that refinery"?
A. The answer is no.
eee
Qa. When you went out there and met up with your
crew and your supervisor, did anybody say there's
asbestos in this refinery?
A. No.
Q. When you went into the unit to do your work,
did you see asbestos in the unit or asbestos-containing
ee
insulation in the unit?
MR. BRAYTON: Maierial that she now knows to
have been asbestos or knew then, or does it matter?
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MR. BROWN: That's not even my question.
MR. BRAYTON: I'm sorry.
THE WITNESS: 1 seen the black mastic was out
there.
BY MR. BROWN:
Q. When you say "the black mastic was out there,"
was it in a bucket, or was it —
A. It was in a bucket.
Q. -- on the pipe?
My question is: When you go out to this unit,
you see piping, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see any vessels out there that hold any
kind of liquids or gases?
A. Mainly where | was at was -- was pipes running.
Q. Did you see insulation on any of the pipes?
__
A. There was insulation on the pipes, but they had
metal on them.
_
Q. Metal jacketing on the pipes?
A Metal jacketing on them.
Q. Did you see any insulation on any of the pipes?
A. In some of the areas, there was -- there was
insulation on it that was covered with black.
Q. You saw the pipes, and you saw that they were
covered --
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A. With insulation.
Q. — with insulation and covered --
A. And covered with black.
Q. Now, did you remove any of the insulation?
"You.
A. I did not remove the insulation. The mechanic
| was working with removed it.
Q. How much insulation did the mechanic remove in
your presence during the approximate two-months that you
were at Tosco?
A. It's very hard to say because I'm kind of in
and out bringing material to other -- other people. |'m
not just standing there, you know. I'm not just
standing. | have to get other material for other
mechanics.
Qa. ! understand, but can you tell me for the
approximate two months that you were there how much
insulation did you see removed?
A. | don't know that. | don't know how much.
Q. Let me ask you this: In terms of any
insulation that you saw removed at the Avon Refinery --
and it was removed by the Plant person, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. The mechanic, correct? _
A. Some. There was some that was taken off by 5
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other personnel.
Q. When had that insulation been installed?
A. | don't know.
—_——
Q. And, again, this was in 1983 when you were
doing the work, correct?
A. I do not know.
Q. But it was in 1983 that you were there doing
this work, correct?
A. Right.
Q. As an insulator, did you learn when asbestos
fibers were originally or initially removed from thermal
a
insulation? Like, in other words, did that happen in
1968? Was asbestos fiber removed in 1972? Did you ever
learn when asbestos fibers had been originally removed
from thermal insulation?
A. | read that -- I'm a reader. And | read that
it was in — basically it was in the '70s that the
asbestos was supposed to have been removed from thermal
insulation.
Q. Now, the insulation that you saw being removed,
eee eee eee
you've already told me you don't know when that had been
—
installed, correct?
A. No. | did not know when it was installed.
Q. And you don't know if it was in the '60s,
correct?
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A. No. | don't know if it was in the ‘60s.
Q. You don't know if it was in the '70s, correct?
A _No.
Q. And you don't know if it was in '80 or ‘81,
A. Looking at it —- no. | don't know.
Q. Now, you said that the Plant mechanic removed,
some of the insulation.
Was that an unusual job for the mechanic?
A. The mechanics are the ones that does the work.
That's the insulator. We're apprentices.
Q. Right.
But the insulator — what that generally refers
to is installing the insulation, correct?
A. No. They did the removal, too.
Q. So they do the removal, and then the pipefitter
comes in and does work?
—_eooeaeeeeeere
A. Does his work.
Q. And while the pipefitter is doing his work, the
insulator goes somewhere else, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And then when the pipefitter gets done, the
insulator comes back and reinsulates, tight?
See eee
A. Yes.
Q. So the work that your mechanic was doing in
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terms of removing this insulation was part of the work
—-
that Plant had contracted to do, correct?
A. Yes.
Qa. Your job in terms of helping the mechanic was
part of the work that Plant was contracted to perform,,
correct?
A. Yes.
_ tes.
Q. You said that you also observed some insulation
or some materials being removed by other personnel.
Do you recall that?
mo you recab ats
A. Yes.
—~_
Q. What other personne! did you see during the two
months that you were at Tosco removing thermal
eee _ eee
insulation?
Would you read that back? Did that make sense?
(Record read.)
THE WITNESS: One was Dillingham and --
Dillingham. Yeah. Dillingham. | just wanted to make
sure | was saying that right. Dillingham. They were
taking insulation off of a valve.
BY MR. BROWN:
Q. Any other personnel?
A. | can't -- | can't — shoot.
Q. If it comes to you, you can tell us.
Okay?
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A. Bechtel.
Q. What were the Bechtel personnel removing
insulation from?
A. They -- they were working around on another
valve that was to be — they were working on a valve and
there was insulation. The valves were insulated, and
they took the insulation off.
Qa. Dillingham and Bechtel.
Any other personnel removing insulation during
the two months you were there other than Plant, Bechtel
and Dillingham?
A. That was it.
And Dillingham removed it off one valve?
A. That's all | seen.
Q. How about Bechtel?
A. Same.
Q. One valve?
A. At that time.
Q. When you say that Dillingham removed insulation
off a valve, did they also remove it off the associated
EE
piping?
A. The way the valve is covered, they undid --
they snipped the wires, and it all came down to the
ground. That's how they removed it.
Qa. Off the valve?
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A. Off the valve.
Q. Was this like a -- was this a pad? When | say
“a pad," do you know what I'm talking about?
A. | know what a pad is. It was not a pad.
Qa. Was it block?
A. It was -- it's insulation that is made to go
around the valve. You can -- it's like pipe covering,
but you can conform the pipe covering to the valve. And
then you have your insulation that is on the pipes that
come up to valve. You go around the valve with this
pipe covering large enough to surround the valve.
Qa. Dillingham was a contractor, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Bechtel was a contractor, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. What size valve did Dillingham remove the
insulation from?
A. They were basically the same size.
MR. BRAYTON: Let me interpose an objection.
The question is vague in terms of what dimension you're
asking for. Are you asking for the dimension of the
pipe that was associated with the valve or the overall
size of the valve?
MR. BROWN: / No. What! was asking about was
the valve. If | want to talk about pipe, I'll say
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“pipe.” But in this context, | asked about the valve.
BY MR. BROWN: :
Q. So | want to know what size valve was involved
that you observed Dillingham removing the insulation
from.
MR. BRAYTON: My objection, Counsel, is
sometimes sizes of valves are referred to as the size of
the diameter of pipe that connects to the valve. You're
asking for actual physical dimensions of valves?
MR. BROWN: Of the valve.
MR. BRAYTON: Okay.
THE WITNESS: 1 don't really know.
BY MR. BROWN:
Q. When had the insulation been installed on
either the valve that was removed -- on either the valve
that was being worked on by Dillingham or Bechtel?
A. | don't know.
Q. Did the insulation that you observed the
Dillingham personnel remove and the Bechtel personnel
remove contain asbestos?
A. The material -- the material looked old. It
did not look new. | assumed that it was old.
Q. How old?
A. Probably -- I'm not really certain.
Q. Because you weren't there when it was
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installed?
A. No, | was not.
Q. You don't know when it was put on?
A. | don't know when it was.
Q. You have no way of judging how long it had been .
there, right?
A. _No.
Q. Is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. That's the same for Bechtel and Dillingham and
Plant, correct?
A _Yes,
Q. In terms of what was in it, you don't know, do
you?
A. | don't know how old the material is.
Q. As a result of the work that Plant did at the
Avon — do you want to stop?
MR. BRAYTON: Let's go off the record.
(Recess taken.)
MR. BRAYTON: Mrs. Juelch is in discomfort to
the point where she doesn't feel she's able to
concentrate and appropriately respond. We're done for
the day.
MR. BROWN: Back in the morning at what time?
MR. BRAYTON: At 9:00.
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STATE OF CALIFORNIA)
)
COUNTY OF ALAMEDA _ )
I, SANDRA M. LEE, do hereby certify:
That JOYCE JUELCH, in the foregoing deposition
named, was present and by me sworn as a witness in the
above-entitled action at the time and place therein
specified;
That said deposition was taken before me at said
time and place, and was taken down in shorthand by me, a
Certified Shorthand Reporter of the State of California,
and was thereafter transcribed into typewriting, and
that the foregoing transcript constitutes a full, true
and correct report of said deposition and of the
proceedings that took place;
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, | have hereunder subscribed
my hand this 14th day of October 2009.
Finda M. Bur
SANDRA M. LEE, CSR No. 9971
State of California
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IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO
---000---
JOYCE JUELCH and NORMAN JUELCH,
Plaintiffs,
No. 275212
vs.
ASBESTOS DEFENDANTS,
Defendants.
DISCOVERY DEPOSITION OF JOYCE JUELCH
VOLUME II
(Pages 185 to 317, inclusive)
Taken before SANDRA M. LEE
CSR No. 9971
September 17, 2009
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A. And wire. | took wire.
Q. In total -- what did you do the rest of the
time? That is, when you weren't retrieving and staging
the material for the insulators and after they had
removed the insulation, what else did you do there?
A. | done cleanup.
Q. And how did you clean up?
A. If the items were big,-| picked them up with my
hands and put them in the box. And | had a small little
rake; it wasn't a big one. It was just a little small
one that | used in my box to try to put the material
together in order to pick it up. You had to be careful,
because if you crumbled it, you had an awful lot of dust
that would come from it. That was part of my job, to
pick up after my mechanics, my insulators.
a. Who gave you that instruction to clean up after
your crew?
A. It's the foreman.
Qa. Did the other apprentices also clean up with
their crews?
A. They cleaned up their crews.
Qa. Did you understand that this was part of the .
contract, that the contractor was to keep the work area
clean?
at
A. Yes.
a
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Qa And that was part of the process at any of the
refineries you worked at, correct?
A. Yes.
_
Q. The contractor was supposed to keep the area
clean?
A. We were to keep our area clean.
Q. Do you know who purchased the insulation that
was being installed by the mechanics?
MR. BRAYTON: Vague.
THE WITNESS: No, | don't.
oe
BY MR. BROWN:
Q. Let me ask you this: Were these, again,
time-and-material contracts?
A. When we were out there, it was not on a
time-and-material.
Q. What was the basis --
A. It was just hourly.
Q. Hourly?
A. Yeah.
Q. Who was responsible to purchase the insulation
that you used -- that was used by your mechanics during
the two months that you worked at the Avon Refinery?
MR. BRAYTON: Lacks foundation.
THE WITNESS: Steve Steele was our -- our
general foreman out there, and I'm sure he went through
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A. No.
Qa. Now, in terms of these other contractors, _
—_—___eeeeeereovwsw ews
Dillingham, for instance, did you see Dillingham
laborers on the job?
A. | just seen -- all | seen was the pipefitters,
because they drove up to the valve that they were going
to work on.
Q. Did you see any Bechtel laborers?
A. | did not see any Bechtel laborers.
Q. Now, did Tosco cause you to be exposed to
asbestos when you were working at the Avon Refinery?
A. | feel they did.
Q. How did they do that?
A. | feel that they were -- they were spreading it
around, their cleaning. | feel | was exposed to it. |
feel some of the material on the ground was asbestos.
Q. How do you know that some of the material on
the ground was asbestos?
A. It's —
MR. BRAYTON: Argumentative.
BY MR. BROWN:
Q. In other words, you didn't have it tested?
A. No. | didn't have it tested.
Q. You weren't around when the original insulation
was installed?
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A. No.
MR: BRAYTON: Argumentative, asked and
answered.
BY MR. BROWN:
Qa. You weren't there when the original gaskets or
packing were installed, correct? |
MR. BRAYTON: Argumentative, asked and 5
answered. .
BY MR. BROWN:
Q. Is that correct?
A. Yes. That's correct. _
Q. Then how would you know whether there was _
asbestos in this dust that you saw?
MR. BRAYTON: Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: Because asbestos was placed out
there. We've used this pipe covering out there at
Tosco, and | was unaware whether or not in these areas
it had been replaced. | know other crafts has worked
out there over the period of years. It could be on the
ground, and if you're sweeping it up and it's flying
around, you can be exposed to it.
BY MR. BROWN:
Q. | understand that.
What I'm saying is: How do you know that the
dust that you saw there contained asbestos?
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Did you see any Tosco person?
A. Tosco people, no.
Q. The Dillingham person or people that you saw
removing pipe covering, how do you know it contained
asbestos?
MR. BRAYTON: Asked and answered,
argumentative.
THE WITNESS: | cannot say that it was asbestos
because | did not have it tested.
BY MR. BROWN:
Q. The same thing for Bechtel, you can't say that
was asbestos either, can you?
MR. BRAYTON: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: No. | did not have it tested.
BY MR. BROWN:
Q. The ground that you saw these Tosco clean-up
crews cleaning, you don't know that that dust had
asbestos in it either, do you?
MR. BRAYTON: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: No. | cannot say it had asbestos
BY MR. BROWN:
Q. And the reason you can't is because you didn't
see the material being --
ees eee
A. Applied.
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Jesiee
MR. BRAYTON: Asked and answered.
BY MR. BROWN:
Q. -- that you saw, correct?
MR. BRAYTON: - Counsel, this is getting abusive
and harassing.
MR. BROWN: | don't mean to do that. | just
want to --
MR. BRAYTON: You've made the point three
times. You don't need to make it a fourth time.
MR. BROWN: Would you read my question back?
(Record read.)
MR. BRAYTON: When was it that you didn't ask
that question before, Counsel?
BY MR. BROWN:
Q. Am | correct?
A. Yes. _
Qa When you were working as an apprentice in 1982,
are you aware of any manufacturer of pipe covering or
block that included asbestos in their product?
ee ee eeesreere eee
MR. BRAYTON: That was being manufactured in
cS
that year?
—_——->
BY MR. BROWN:
a. That was being manufactured when you started
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working as an apprentice.
A. They were still using the black mastic. They
were still using Foster fibrous adhesive.
MR. BRAYTON: His question was as to pipe
covering and block. Do you know if any manufacturer in
1982 was manufacturing pipe covering or block that
contained asbestos?
Lcomained asbestos?
THE WITNESS: No. | don't know.
BY MR. BROWN:
@. Now, you told us the other day that you started
doing research on asbestos, and that was about in your
third —
A. Third year.
Q. -- year.
That would be in about 1985?
A. 1985.
Qa. And you were doing this computer research,
correct?
A. Correct.
Qa. And you were reading about the various types of
conditions that could be caused by exposure to asbestos.
‘Do you recall that?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you share that information with Mr. Juelch? .
A | talked to him about it, yes.
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A. Them were the only two that | recall being
there that | recognized, which was Dillingham and
Bechtel.
Q. To step back, as you recall, yesterday we were
talking a bit about your time at Shell, your very first
outing as an apprentice.
You recall that, right?
A. Yes.
5 :
Q. _ Do you-recall the identity of any other
contractors besides Plant that were out at Shell during
the time you were working there?
A. Dillingham was there.
Q. Do you know what Dillingham was doing?
A. They were working on the -- the valves, on one
° , ———
of the valves that -- actually, it was not very far down
from where our shack was, what we called our shack.
They were working on a valve down there.
Q. Was the Dillingham trade that was out there
pipefitters?
A. They were pipefitters, yes.
Q. Do you recall any other trades that were out
there while you were there?
MR. BRAYTON: Other trades associated with
Dillingham or other trades?
MR. POESCHL: Period.
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are never supposed to remove insulation?
A. They're not supposed to remove insulation.
Q. And did you make any report of that?
A. | told my boss.
Q. Did you tell the pipefitters?
A. | did tell the pipefitters that that was the
_insulators' job, was to remove the insulation from any
of the piping or valves.
Q. What was the upshot of you passing along that
information; was there any investigation or discipline
applied?
A. | do not know. | just know that | had
expressed it to my general foreman at that time.
Q. All of this work where you were -- the Bechtel
people were taking off insulation from the valves, that
was out of doors, correct?
A. it was outdoors, yes.
Q. And pardon me for — | couldn't tell which of
the two months in 1983 you started there. | thought |
heard September, but then | thought | heard December.
Did you start in December?
A. It was in September when | first went out to
the job.
Q. September of 1983 through October of 19837
MR. BRAYTON: Are you asking about Tosco now,
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Counsel?
MR. ARNESON: Yes, | am.
MR. BRAYTON: I think her testimony about
ee
September was when she first went out to Shell, the very
first job. I'm not sure she's testified to a specific
month in 1983.
BY MR. ARNESON:
Qa. I'm only interested in Tosco right now. .
Can you tell me when you first went to Tosco,
ma'am?
MR. BRAYTON: Asked and answered. 1983. Do
you want to know if she knows more specifically in
1983?
MR. ARNESON: Yes, | do.
MR. BRAYTON: Do you know more specifically in
a
1983 when you did the work out at Tosco?
THE WITNESS: | believe it was around May or
June, because it was summer months.
BY MR. ARNESON:
Q. So it was during the summer?
A. Yes.
MR. ARNESON: I don't think | have anything
further at this time. Thank you very much, ma'am.
MR. BRAYTON: Other follow-up on the Tosco or
Shell Refinery work in 1982, 1983?
255
Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/17/2009oO on ODO oO FF WO NY =
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a FB WO Yo |= O09 o6© &®B NN OO oO fF WO NY | FD
EXAMINATION BY MR. BROWN:
Q. Let me ask one question about this Dillingham
and Bechtel work,
eee
Did the insulation that Dillingham and Bechtel
removed contain asbestos?
MR. BRAYTON: Asked and answered, Counsel.
MR. BROWN: | don't think we asked about
Dillingham and Bechtel.
THE WITNESS: | could not say yes due to the
fact | wasn't there when it was — it was put on.
BY MR. BROWN:
Q. You told us about Shell, and you told us about
Tosco.
The other place you worked was Dow, is that
correct?
A. Dow Chemical.
Qa. Did you ever work at a Union Oi] Company or
Unocal Refinery?
A. No.
Qa Do you claim exposure to asbestos as a result.
of anyone working at a Union Oil Company or Unocal
Refinery?
MR. BRAYTON: Objection to the question of
claim. I'llinstruct her not to answer. It calls for a
tegal conclusion, and it may invade attorney-client
256
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258
Unocal?
MR. BRAYTON: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: | was trying to think if my
husband worked there, but | would have to say no.
MR. BROWN: Thank you.
Can we take a short break so | can talk to the
other defendants?
MR. BRAYTON: It's about break time, anyway
Preview
510-658-3600 oD ON Dak wD YN NN YY NNN YD NY Be ew Be ew eB Bw es oI A AP OoHS EH SCO RANA HAR wD NHE DS MARK S. KANNETT (SBN 104572) EMILY D. BERGSTROM (SBN 191395) MARCIA L. RAYMOND (SBN 215655) BECHERER KANNETT & SCHWEITZER 1255 Powell Street Emeryville, CA 94608 Telephone: (510) 658-3600 Facsimile: (510) 658-1151 Attorneys for Defendant DILLINGHAM CONSTRUCTION N.A., INC. ELECTRONICALLY FILED Superior Court of California, County of San Francisco FEB 26 2010 Clerk of the Court BY: ANNIE PASCUAL Deputy Clerk SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO — UNLIMITED JURISDICTION JOYCE JUELCH and NORMAN JUELCH, SR., Plaintiffs, vs. ASBESTOS DEFENDANTS (BP) As Reflected on Exhibits B, B-1, C; and DOES 1-8500, Defendants. eS SS SS SS SS CASE NO. CGC 09-275212 EXHIBIT C TO THE DECLARATION OF DEFENDANT DILLINGHAM CONSTRUCTION N.A., INC.’S MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT ~ Date: March 18, 2010 Time: 9:30 a.m. Dept.: 220 Judge: Hon. Harold E. Kahn Trial Date: April 5, 2010 Complaint May 20, 2009 Filed: ’ MARCIA L. RAYMOND IN SUPPORT OF EXHIBIT C TO THE DECLARATION OF MARCIA.L. RAYMOND IN SUPPORT OF DEFENDANT DILLINGHAM CONSTRUCTION N.A., INC.’S MQTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENTExhibit CoO Oo © NN DW oO fF BO NM = = 6 c= = IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO --000—- JOYCE JUELCH and NORMAN JUELCH, Plaintiffs, No. 275212 vs. ASBESTOS DEFENDANTS, Defendants. VIDEOTAPED TRIAL PRESERVATION TESTIMONY OF JOYCE JUELCH (Pages 1 to 115, inclusive) Taken before SANDRA M. LEE CSR No. 9971 September 15, 2009= oo oa NN DO oO Rh WH DN 31 THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. BRAYTON: Q. For that sort of work, taking the insulation -- old insulation material off, did that — was there any tendency for that work to 09:52 fall more to the journeyman or to the apprentice? A. Most of the time -- well, it could be for both. | mean, if we were allowed to -- usually your first-year apprentices didn't do too much with the materials and stuff. When you became a 09:52 second-year, usually you were given jobs to do besides your delivering materials, you know, to the mechanics. You would get small jobs to do to learn how to, you know, remove the insulation and apply it and -- but it was usually both mechanics and 09:53 apprentices would be doing it. Qa. Do you recall the first place you went out on an insulation job? —_—_—— A. Yes. Shell. Q. When you say "Shell," what are you talking 09:53 about? A. Shell Refinery. Q. Whereabouts is that located? A. | keep wanting to say Pittsburg, but that was the other one. Martinez? 09:53 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/15/2009oo DOWN OOo ke Ww NY = Ny NM DB NY NY DB |= we Ba Bw Bw BD Bw Bw ew a FB Oo NY = 909 OO Oo N BD oO FF W DH = Q. You've named a couple of places. lt was up in the North Bay Area? A. Yes. Q. Who were you working for when you first went out to work at Shell? 09:53 A. Plant. Q. And when you say "Plant" — A. Plant Insulation. Q. What kind of work did you perform there on that first job you did for Plant out at Shell Oil? 09:54 A. My job was to bring the material to the mechanics and see that they had all that they required and clean up after them. And basically because a lot of their work was up off of a ladder up on the pipe racks, and so | would kind of stand 09:54 there and hand the material up to them. That's usually what | did. Q Did -- when insulators worked at a location like the Shell Oil Refinery, were they the only people working out at a job site, or were 09:55 there other trades working at the same time? A. No. There was other trades that was out there. MR. POESCHL: Belated objection; vague, ambiguous, overbroad, foundation. 09:55 32 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/15/2009o ON DOD oO FF WOW NY = Mm MBM NM BY YY NY @ Be ae oa a ao ew an aw a ao fF oO Yo = 909 6 ODN DoH BF Ww NY | OO 33 MR. SCHAEFER: Also leading. BY MR. BRAYTON: Q. Can you describe the -- what sorts of other trades would be working in the area where insulators were performing their work? 09:55 MR. POESCHL: Same objections. THE WITNESS: Pipefitters and welders. BY MR. BRAYTON: Qa. What kind of work did pipefitters do? A. They were working on the valves. 09:55 Qa. _ Specifically what kind of things would they be doing to the valves? MR. BROWN: Question is vague and overbroad. THE WITNESS: They were changing the 09:56 valves. MR. POESCHL: Gary, while we're between questions here, may we have a stipulation with regard to objections? MR. BRAYTON: - We have one. 09:56 MR. POESCHL: Oh, we have one. MS. BAKER: Could you read her response? (Record read.) BY MR. BRAYTON: Q. Were you in a position where you could see 09:56 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/15/2009oOo ON ODO oO BF WB NB = = = = 36 other person you indicated, I'd say, was in the area of eight to ten feet from you. BY MR. BRAYTON: Q. When pipefitters were doing their work that you observed, did they sometimes work on areas 09:59 where the existing pipe and valves and equipment that they were working on had existing insulation already on the material? MR. POESCHL: Objection; leading, vague and ambiguous, overbroad, lacks foundation. 10:00 THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. BRAYTON: Qa. Is that something you could see? A. Yes. Q. Was there a procedure that -- from your 10:00 training that you understood was supposed to be followed when there was existing insulation in an area where a pipefitter was to perform work? A. Usually the insulators were told, and we'd go out and take off the material where the 10:00 pipefitters were going to work at. That's generally what was supposed to take place. It's because it was the insulator's responsibility to remove the insulation as well as replace the insulation. That was our job. 10:00 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/15/2009= ao US = 37 Q. Was that procedure where the insulators always took off the existing insulation -- was that always followed? A. No. Qa. Would pipefitters take off insulation 10:00 themselves? A. Yes, they would. Q. Do you recall who employed the pipefitters when you were out on this initial job at the Shell CO oO NN OD mH BRB WD Oil facility? 10:01 A. Dillingham. Qa How were you able to tell that the pipefitters were employed by Dillingham? A. From their — their clothing and their automobile that was parked there. It had 10:01 "Dillingham" on it. Their hat. Qa. _ Did you observe Dillingham pipefitters a removing insulation from the pipes and equipment they were working on while you were working out there at Shell? 10:01 A. Yes.. They clipped the wires, and they got the insulation dropped to the ground. And I mentioned something to them, and they didn't like. it, what | had to say, so... Q. Did they stop doing it? 10:02 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/15/2009oo ODN Oo TO RF Ww NY me MM MS NY NY KY | = =& 2B Be eae Ba Se ms a a F © NH = CO Oo Aa NN Do BF Ww NY = 39 A. Yes. Qa. What was the air like around these laborers when they were doing this sweep-up you've just desctibed? MR. SCHAEFER: Vague. 10:03 THE WITNESS: It was very dusty. BY MR. BRAYTON: Q. You mentioned the process of how pipefitters went about removing gaskets. Did you see them replace old gaskets with 10:04 new gaskets? A. Yes. Q. Did you have an opportunity to observe anything that indicated what the brand of the new gaskets that were being applied? 10:04 A. Yes. MR. SCHAEFER: Leading, overbroad, calls for speculation. THE WITNESS: Yes. BY MR. BRAYTON: Q. What was it that you -- what was it you were able to observe? A. The name on the gasket was Garlock. Q. Where -- when you talk about a gasket and a name appearing, where do you recall seeing the 10:04 aaa eee eee essex Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/15/2009ol oOoOmUmUOMUGNSLUODUCUOUCUCUMRCCUO NO MO DH NY YB KY HY | Bs Bs BSB Ba se Se ws Se = a Bb oO nN | OD O© OD NN DOD oO BR WHO DY = name Garlock on the new gasket material? A. They were -- they were cutting a gasket off of a sheet, and the sheet had "Garlock" written on it. Q. The way you've moved your hand seems to 10:05 suggest that -- you tell me if I'm wrong —- the name Garlock would appear on multiple locations -- A. Right. Qa. —on the sheet? A. On the sheet. 10:05 MR. SCHAEFER: Leading. BY MR. BRAYTON: Qa Is that right? A. Yes. Qa Do you recall what they used to cut the 10:05 material off of the sheet of the roll of gasket material? MR. SCHAEFER: Vague. THE WITNESS: They had a pair of shears that they took out of their toolbox. 10:05 BY MR. BRAYTON: Qa And was there additional work that had to be done to get the sheet material to work and fit as a gasket? MR. SCHAEFER: Leading, lacks foundation. 10:05 40 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/15/2009oo Oo NN DOD OH FF WY NM SB my MN NY HY NY B=S Ba sw SB os Ss Sa a ase a a PB Ww NYO BB OO O© DOD NN OW oO BW NY = 42 BY MR. BRAYTON: Q. You mentioned the very first place you worked, that being Shell Oil, and that was for Plant Insulation. Did you work at Shell Oil more than once? 10:07 A. Yes. Q. Was that — the times you worked there, was that for Plant? A. It was for Plant. Qa. Was that all during your apprenticeship 10:08 period from '82 through '85? A. Yes. Q. Did you work at any other refineries or industrial sites for Plant during your initial apprenticeship period? 10:08 A. Yes. It was -- Q. Which ones can you think of? A. Dow Chemical and Tosco. Qa. When you first started out as an apprentice in 1982, can you tell me what kind of _ 10:08 respiratory equipment — protection equipment was provided to you when you were performing your work? A. We were issued 3M paper masks. a. Can | ask you to describe those a little bit more? 10:08 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/15/2009oc Oo oO N OD oO fF WOW NY = MW NM NY HN NY = @ = B&B we BB Be es a F&F WwW rye = OD OG DA NN Dao fF Ww NY = A. It's just a paper mask that fits over -- over your nose and mouth, and it has one -- one kind of, like, rubber -- | call it rubber band that fits around your head. Qa Would these paper masks -- were these 10:09 fitted particularly for, like, an individual's face? ee A. No. Qa ~ Where did you get these masks? A. _ Out of the change room. They had aboxin 10:09 there, and they all came from the same box. There was No sizes. Q. Everybody used the same —- A. "Everybody used the same size. Qa There was a single elastic band, and they 10:09 secured it around — A. Single elastic band that secured it around your head. Qa. Other than the -- what you described as paper, was there any other sort of filtration, any 10:09 kind of canister or -- A. No. Qa -- separate filter that was associated with this mask? A. No. 10:09 43 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/15/2009oo ON DO oO fF WwW NY = yO NM MY NY NY NY =| = & BSB BSB B=Be se a = = a BF oO Yo = 0D oO ON DO FF WY DY = Qa And it certainly doesn't sound like the kind of mask where they were supplying you outside separate air or anything like that. A. No. MR. BROWN: Question is vague. 10:10 THE WITNESS: No. MR. SCHAEFER: Also leading. BY MR. BRAYTON: Q. You mentioned working at Tosco Refinery with Plant during your apprenticeship period. 10:10 Where was that located? A Tosco was in... Qa. Did you work at Tosco a single time or several times? A. | worked there -- | think | worked there 10:10 twice. I'm really not positive, because | worked at Dow -- no. | think | worked at Tosco one time. Q. Were there other trades working along with you when you worked at Tosco? A. Yes. 10:11 Q. Do you recall who employed -- were the pipefitters working there? A. There was pipefitters, welders. Q. Do you recall who employed the pipefitters that were working at Tosco when you were working — 10:11 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/15/2009oon Oo oOo FF WwW DY = mM NM MB NY NYP NY B= Be sa Boao ae ws ao oa a a a Bb Ww NH |= OD G© ON DW OH BF WO DY |= CO there? MR. BROWN: Lacks foundation, calls for speculation. THE WITNESS: At this moment, | can't remember. BY MR. BRAYTON: Qa. Did the -- what kind of work were the pipefitters doing there? A. They were working on the valves and the pipes. They were putting in some new pipes and 10:12 working on the valves. Q. Did the work that they performed include - the gasket replacement you previously described? A. Yes. MR. SCHAEFER: Leading. 10:12 THE WITNESS: They were replacing gaskets, and they were bringing new pipe into the old pipe. BY MR. BRAYTON: Q. Did the pipefitters at Tosco -- is there anything different about the way they went about 10:12 removing old gaskets and what you previously described? MR. SCHAEFER: Vague, overbroad. MR. BROWN: The question misstates the witness's prior testimony. It's also leading, also 10:12 45 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/15/2009: | | oO ON DO FF Oo NY = = c= = a. When you started up with working for Norcal, what sort of respiratory protective equipment was provided to you for your work for them? A. There was only one job that we had 10:53 actually went out on, and it was considered a complete ripoff, which is it was asbestos and we had to tent it off and everything. Everything was kind of on the up and up is what I call it) The right equipment was out there, and — but priorto 10:53 any other job, we were.given masks, the paper ee masks. ee Q. Was there anything different in terms of , the equipment that was normally furnished to you by — Norcal that was different than the masks you're 10:54 describing that you normally got from Norcal; any difference from the masks -- A. __No. Q. -- you described? A. It was stil! just the 3M one-band paper 10:54 mask. Qa You mentioned there was a single job site that you recall during your work for Norcal where a different sort of procedure was used — A. Yes. 10:54 65 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/15/2009o AN Oo oO FF WO NY = mM MB MB NS KY NY @= BSB Ba Ba aw ow oa a a a ana BB OW NH = 0D 6 ON DOD Oa FF Ww NY =| 8 STATE OF CALIFORNIA ) ) COUNTY OF ALAMEDA _ ) 1, SANDRA M. LEE, do hereby certify: That JOYCE JUELCH, in the foregoing deposition named, was present and by me sworn as a witness in the above-entitled action at the time and place therein specified; That said deposition was taken before me at said time and place, and was taken down in shorthand by me, a Certified Shorthand Reporter of the State of California, and was thereafter transcribed into typewriting, and that the foregoing transcript constitutes a full, true and correct report of said deposition and of the proceedings that took place; IN WITNESS WHEREOF, | have hereunder subscribed my hand this ist day of October 2009. Pindar M. tu SANDRA M. LEE, CSR No. 9971 State of California 115 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/15/2009= = 11 oclUcOOmUlUlCOMCUNCUCOOlUCUCUCOCUCUDBClUMAGN IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO ---0Qo-— JOYCE JUELCH and NORMAN JUELCH, Plaintiffs, No. 275212 vs. ASBESTOS DEFENDANTS, Defendants. DISCOVERY DEPOSITION OF JOYCE JUELCH VOLUME | (Pages 1 to 184, inclusive) Taken before SANDRA M. LEE CSR No. 9971 September 16, 2009olUcOoUlUCOUmMWUNLCLUCUCOOFUUCUCOCCULRlCOC DN yy DS NY HB NY YN BSB BSB sae sae se se saa ase = a fF wo He = FG 6 DN Do fF Ww NY = A. Through my local, Local 16, out of our office. Q. And how did they do that; did they call you on the phone or send you a letter and say — A. On the phone. Qa. Somebody called you on the phone. A. Uh-huh. Q. And they said, "Miss Juelch, we want you to go report to" -- where? A. Whatever place they're sending me to. Like, | was sent out to Shell, and | was to report to who would be my foreman out there. Q. When you went out there, did you have an understanding that there was asbestos in the refinery? A = __No. MR. BRAYTON: Asked and answered. BY MR. BROWN: Q. No one from Plant told you that there was asbestos anyplace in the refinery? ee ee A. The only thing that we were told is when we went out there, we had to wait at the gate because we __ had to be driven back to where our job site was. We waited there for a truck to come and pick us up, and we'd go to the shack that belonged to Plant. And that's eee eee eee where we got our orders of basically where our job sites were going to be at. And no, nothing was mentioned in 161 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/16/2009oO oO Oo NN ODO OH FB WwW HY | = regards to asbestos. Q. So your supervisor at Plant didn't tell you there was any asbestos anyplace in the refinery? A. No. —_— Q. Correct? A. That's correct. a. And the person who dispatched you from the ee A See esessSs esses union didn't tell you that there was asbestos anyplace in the refinery correct? A. They said nothing about asbestos. Qa. Did anybody from Shell provide you with any materials to use? _ ee A. They were the ones that -- the material that we put -- our pipe covering, is this what you're talking about, the pipe covering? Q. Yes. A. Because that's what we were doing, is pipe covering. The pipe covering was — was at a certain area at the plant. The apprentices, which was myself and a couple of others, we'd go and get it, put itina truck and bring it back to the job site. Q. You mentioned before there was a Plant yard at the facility, correct? A. Yes. They had a Plant yard. Qa. Did they have a trailer in this, quote, 162 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/16/2009= oO ON ODO oO FF WY DN unquote, yard? A. Yes. Q. They also stored insulating materials in this Plant yard, correct? A. No. We had to go elsewhere to get the material. Qa. Where did you go to get the material? A. They had a particular area that was not in the same place where the trailer was. It was a little ways away from the trailer. That's the reason we'd have to take the truck and go there, pick up the material and bring it back to the job sites. Q. Who purchased - well, the insulation that you were using didn't contain asbestos, right? MR. BRAYTON: New insulation that she was -- BY MR. BROWN: Q. The new insulation that you were involved with in installing, as the apprentice, you would go and get it and set it up and take it to the mechanics, right? A. Take it to the mechanics, yes. Q. That insulation did not contain asbestos, correct? MR. BRAYTON: According to what you were told. THE WITNESS: According to what | was told, it 163 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/16/2009oO oan DOD FHF FF ODO NY = = oO 11 was not asbestos. a BY MR. BROWN: Q. And who told you that? A. My boss. Q. And that was someone who was employed by Plant; is that correct? —_———_——_— A. That's correct. Q. Did you have any reason to disbelieve what were told? A. The boxes were new. They weren't old. | u— figured it was fairly new material. Q. Did it -- and this was in 1982, correct? A Yes. Q. And did the box say "nonasbestos-containing"? A. | don't recall it saying anything like that. Q. Do you recall what it said on the box? A. Just the name, the company. It was "Owens & Corning" and the size of the pipe covering and — what else did it say? The length. Q. Now, how many people were in your crew? _. MR. BRAYTON: You're talking about this very first time? MR. BROWN: I'm only talking about this first time -- THE WITNESS: The first time going out there -- 164 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/16/2009oO © OB N ODO oO RF WN = me NM HS NY NY NH = = =& B&B Bo oa Ba Ba a a a & Ww NY. = FG O© w7A nN Do FF Ww N = BY MR. BROWN: Qa. -- when you were turned out as an apprentice. A. -- | think there was probably about -- about ten mechanics, and | think, if | recall right, there was four apprentices. Because | was a first-year they also had two third-year apprentices out there. Qa. Were you doing turn-around or maintenance work or new construction? A. They were actually -- I'm trying to think what they were doing. They were taking off some material because they were working on -- some of them were working on -- the pipefitters were working on valves, so ee eee they were taking off the material, the lines that were attached to the valves. And they would remove that, and then when the pipefitters got through doing their job, they would come back and put the material back on. Q. So were the Plant mechanics and apprentices removing thermal insulation? A. No. They were not supposed to. But there was a couple times that they did themselves, but it wasn't Plant. it wasn't Plant that was doing it. Q. Did you -- A. It was a different company. Q. Did you remove thermal insulation there? 165 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/16/2009oo ODN ODO oO FB WwW NY = mM MN NY NY B's = so 3a a oa sw SB Ss a F&F wn = 0D OG AN DBD oO RF WOW NY = A. Myself? Q. Yes. A. No. It was the mechanic that | was bringing the material to. Qa. Once the work was done on these valves, then the Plant insulators came in and reinsulated the valves, correct? ee A. We did, yes.__ Q. Now, this job was being done ona time-and-materials? —_—_—— MR. BRAYTON: Calls for speculation, lacks foundation. If you know. THE WITNESS: I don't know. ——__ BY MR. BROWN: Qa. Well, while you were working in the trade, it was not common just to have the insulators standing around waiting for someone to finish doing a job? A. Oh, no. You'd go someplace else. Q. Right. On this particular job, when the materials were removed and work was done on the valves, the Plant people were generally somewhere else, correct? That would include you; you were someplace else, correct? eee eee eee eee eee A. Yes. 166 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/16/2009oo ODN ODO Oo F&F BO NY = = Q. So when whatever was being removed was removed, _——- except for the time you talked about the mechanic removing something, you were somewhere else, correct? MR. BRAYTON: Vague. THE WITNESS: | can say that times that the _ other crafts were doing their job, | was in that area because my people were up here. There's lines down here, there's lines up here and my people would be up here (indicating). Because usually we tried to stay in a generalized area until them jobs were done. MR. BRAYTON: If | could make a record, the witness was indicating as she spoke there were lines down here, up here and up here. She indicated three different levels with hand motions. And when she spoke about where her people were, she spoke of one of the higher levels. She seemed to be indicating one of the higher levels. - BY MR. BROWN: Qa. Where people were was dependent on the type of work that was being done, correct? A. Yes. Q. And not every job was the same, correct? A. No. Q. Is that correct? A. That's correct. 167 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/16/2009oOo ON DO HO Rh Ww HY = Ny Nw YY NY NY NY BS BSB B= Bs Be Bs Be we we BS a fk WO NH = OG OO OB NN DW oO FF WwW DY = a. So if pipefitters were removing a valve and _ reinstalling a new valve and had removed insulation in order to do that work, the Plant crew would not be there waiting for the pipefitters to get done before reinstailing insulation on that valve; isn't that correct? A. They're not going to stand there and wait for them to get done. Qa. So once the valve is in place and the line is tested and it passes the inspection, then it's approved to be reinsulated, right? A. That's correct. Q. And then the Plant people would come in and do their work of reinsulating the flange or the valve or whatever, correct? eee A. Yes. Q. And that's when you would have to get the SS materials, bring them out for the mechanics and get it all staged for them to install, correct? A. Yes. . Q. You talked to us the other day, and you told us eet you also did some work at Tosco; is that correct? A. Yes. Q. That's at the Avon Refinery? A. Yes. 168 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/16/2009= 10 o oO nN Oa Fk WwW NY Q. Did you work at any other Tosco-owned facility? A. The only other place was Dow Chemical, was what | worked at. Tosco is the only... Q. But Dow wasn't owned by Tosco? A. No. Q. Did you work in the refinery proper? A. In the refinery. Q And in order to get into the refinery, you have to go through a checkpoint; is that correct? A. Yes. Qa And then there's a Plant yard on Solano Way, tight, that's as you're driving through the refinery on Solano would be off to the left, right? A. Yes. Q. In that yard, Plant had a trailer, right? A. I'm trying to think. Yes. Q. They also stored -- and they had boxes of material stored in that yard as well, correct? A. Yes. Q. And when were you at Tosco in Avon? A. I think in '83. es Q. Is this before or during the time when you were doing research on asbestos? A. You know, | didn't really start looking until my third year. It was before | started researching. 169 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/16/2009oO on DW TH FF Ww YY = My NM NM NY KY NHN BS B= Bs sa ae ses sao oa Bs a na F&F wow NH = FG Oo BN DW HTH FF Ww HY |= CO Qa. How long, days or weeks, did you work at T: in 1983? A. Seemed like | was out there a couple of months. | think it was just a couple of months. Qa. What project were you working on? A. I'm trying to think of which one. I didn't really know the names of the different projects. It was one of the — | call it the building as you're coming in. It's quite elevated. It's pretty high. | don't know what unit it is. Q. Where was it located? When | say "Solano Way," do you know what street that is? A. I do. | believe it's the one that is facing it because of when we came in. Qa. Did you drive all the way down Solano Way? A. Yeah. You go all the way down, and then you come in through some gates. Then you come all the way back down this way, then back (indicating). | don't know how to explain it. Qa. We're not going to explain that for the record, but what | want to know is: Was this an office building? A. No. It was -- it was opened up, and it was, like, different levels of where there was pipes. And that's on each one of these levels, and -- 170 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Jueich 9/16/2009ocUOmUmUCUCOUCUN CU OD BOON me NM NM NY NY KN |S BSB B= ws SB Be Ba Ba ae Se a Bb Ww HY = OG OO oa NN DW oO BF Ww HY = Q. There's potential exposures to vapors and gases in the refinery that are just byproducts of the refining process; is that correct? A. That's correct. Qa. But when you were dispatched from -- and you understood when you went out there that working in the refinery, or Shell or any chemical plant or anything, is a potentially dangerous place? A. Yes. Q. You knew and appreciated and understood that? A. Yes. Qa. When you got the call from the dispatch, and | want to be specific about this, did the person say to you "This is an oil refinery. It's been there for many years. There's asbestos in that refinery"? A. The answer is no. eee Qa. When you went out there and met up with your crew and your supervisor, did anybody say there's asbestos in this refinery? A. No. Q. When you went into the unit to do your work, did you see asbestos in the unit or asbestos-containing ee insulation in the unit? MR. BRAYTON: Maierial that she now knows to have been asbestos or knew then, or does it matter? 172 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/16/2009= oO oN ODO oO FF W DN MR. BROWN: That's not even my question. MR. BRAYTON: I'm sorry. THE WITNESS: 1 seen the black mastic was out there. BY MR. BROWN: Q. When you say "the black mastic was out there," was it in a bucket, or was it — A. It was in a bucket. Q. -- on the pipe? My question is: When you go out to this unit, you see piping, correct? A. Yes. Q. Did you see any vessels out there that hold any kind of liquids or gases? A. Mainly where | was at was -- was pipes running. Q. Did you see insulation on any of the pipes? __ A. There was insulation on the pipes, but they had metal on them. _ Q. Metal jacketing on the pipes? A Metal jacketing on them. Q. Did you see any insulation on any of the pipes? A. In some of the areas, there was -- there was insulation on it that was covered with black. Q. You saw the pipes, and you saw that they were covered -- 173 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/16/2009oO oa Nn Oo oO fk Ww NY = SO NY MB DB NY DY | Ss = Se =| |e =e ao = a on BF Oo NY = OC Ob OB NN Do FF Wo NY | CO A. With insulation. Q. — with insulation and covered -- A. And covered with black. Q. Now, did you remove any of the insulation? "You. A. I did not remove the insulation. The mechanic | was working with removed it. Q. How much insulation did the mechanic remove in your presence during the approximate two-months that you were at Tosco? A. It's very hard to say because I'm kind of in and out bringing material to other -- other people. |'m not just standing there, you know. I'm not just standing. | have to get other material for other mechanics. Qa. ! understand, but can you tell me for the approximate two months that you were there how much insulation did you see removed? A. | don't know that. | don't know how much. Q. Let me ask you this: In terms of any insulation that you saw removed at the Avon Refinery -- and it was removed by the Plant person, correct? A. Yes. Q. The mechanic, correct? _ A. Some. There was some that was taken off by 5 174 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/16/2009oOo OtOmelUGN UOlUCUUCUCUMBLCUCUCUO Ne MN NM MY NY NY MY BP Ba Be Ba aw we Ba ew Se a fF WO NY = 0 Oo ODN DW TO F&F Ww DY = other personnel. Q. When had that insulation been installed? A. | don't know. —_—— Q. And, again, this was in 1983 when you were doing the work, correct? A. I do not know. Q. But it was in 1983 that you were there doing this work, correct? A. Right. Q. As an insulator, did you learn when asbestos fibers were originally or initially removed from thermal a insulation? Like, in other words, did that happen in 1968? Was asbestos fiber removed in 1972? Did you ever learn when asbestos fibers had been originally removed from thermal insulation? A. | read that -- I'm a reader. And | read that it was in — basically it was in the '70s that the asbestos was supposed to have been removed from thermal insulation. Q. Now, the insulation that you saw being removed, eee eee eee you've already told me you don't know when that had been — installed, correct? A. No. | did not know when it was installed. Q. And you don't know if it was in the '60s, correct? 175 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/16/2009oO Oo Oo NO oO Be wD NE S| = le = A. No. | don't know if it was in the ‘60s. Q. You don't know if it was in the '70s, correct? A _No. Q. And you don't know if it was in '80 or ‘81, A. Looking at it —- no. | don't know. Q. Now, you said that the Plant mechanic removed, some of the insulation. Was that an unusual job for the mechanic? A. The mechanics are the ones that does the work. That's the insulator. We're apprentices. Q. Right. But the insulator — what that generally refers to is installing the insulation, correct? A. No. They did the removal, too. Q. So they do the removal, and then the pipefitter comes in and does work? —_eooeaeeeeeere A. Does his work. Q. And while the pipefitter is doing his work, the insulator goes somewhere else, correct? A. Yes. Q. And then when the pipefitter gets done, the insulator comes back and reinsulates, tight? See eee A. Yes. Q. So the work that your mechanic was doing in 176 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/16/2009o ON OD oO fF WO NY = = 0-0 0Ula ye |= O&O 13 terms of removing this insulation was part of the work —- that Plant had contracted to do, correct? A. Yes. Qa. Your job in terms of helping the mechanic was part of the work that Plant was contracted to perform,, correct? A. Yes. _ tes. Q. You said that you also observed some insulation or some materials being removed by other personnel. Do you recall that? mo you recab ats A. Yes. —~_ Q. What other personne! did you see during the two months that you were at Tosco removing thermal eee _ eee insulation? Would you read that back? Did that make sense? (Record read.) THE WITNESS: One was Dillingham and -- Dillingham. Yeah. Dillingham. | just wanted to make sure | was saying that right. Dillingham. They were taking insulation off of a valve. BY MR. BROWN: Q. Any other personnel? A. | can't -- | can't — shoot. Q. If it comes to you, you can tell us. Okay? 177 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/16/2009oO on on on fF Wo DY = MM NM NH NM NY @& B& Bw ew ew ow aw ow a a ao F&F WwW He |- OO O© oO NN DO oO FF WO HY |= O&O A. Bechtel. Q. What were the Bechtel personnel removing insulation from? A. They -- they were working around on another valve that was to be — they were working on a valve and there was insulation. The valves were insulated, and they took the insulation off. Qa. Dillingham and Bechtel. Any other personnel removing insulation during the two months you were there other than Plant, Bechtel and Dillingham? A. That was it. And Dillingham removed it off one valve? A. That's all | seen. Q. How about Bechtel? A. Same. Q. One valve? A. At that time. Q. When you say that Dillingham removed insulation off a valve, did they also remove it off the associated EE piping? A. The way the valve is covered, they undid -- they snipped the wires, and it all came down to the ground. That's how they removed it. Qa. Off the valve? 178 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/16/2009| | | oc Oo Om N DOD mH Rk WN = mM NM NB NY NY NH B@B |= s&s s&s ao awa Bae a as a a fF wry = 9D 0 ON OD TO FF Ww NY = A. Off the valve. Q. Was this like a -- was this a pad? When | say “a pad," do you know what I'm talking about? A. | know what a pad is. It was not a pad. Qa. Was it block? A. It was -- it's insulation that is made to go around the valve. You can -- it's like pipe covering, but you can conform the pipe covering to the valve. And then you have your insulation that is on the pipes that come up to valve. You go around the valve with this pipe covering large enough to surround the valve. Qa. Dillingham was a contractor, right? A. Yes. Q. Bechtel was a contractor, correct? A. Yes. Q. What size valve did Dillingham remove the insulation from? A. They were basically the same size. MR. BRAYTON: Let me interpose an objection. The question is vague in terms of what dimension you're asking for. Are you asking for the dimension of the pipe that was associated with the valve or the overall size of the valve? MR. BROWN: / No. What! was asking about was the valve. If | want to talk about pipe, I'll say 179 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/16/2009oO oA nN DOD OHO FF WOW NY = My MH YM NY NY = BSB Be Bs Ba Baw aw aw a os a F&F Oo NY = O20 0 OB NN DOD oO FF Ww NY |= CO “pipe.” But in this context, | asked about the valve. BY MR. BROWN: : Q. So | want to know what size valve was involved that you observed Dillingham removing the insulation from. MR. BRAYTON: My objection, Counsel, is sometimes sizes of valves are referred to as the size of the diameter of pipe that connects to the valve. You're asking for actual physical dimensions of valves? MR. BROWN: Of the valve. MR. BRAYTON: Okay. THE WITNESS: 1 don't really know. BY MR. BROWN: Q. When had the insulation been installed on either the valve that was removed -- on either the valve that was being worked on by Dillingham or Bechtel? A. | don't know. Q. Did the insulation that you observed the Dillingham personnel remove and the Bechtel personnel remove contain asbestos? A. The material -- the material looked old. It did not look new. | assumed that it was old. Q. How old? A. Probably -- I'm not really certain. Q. Because you weren't there when it was 180 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/16/2009oO on DW oO FF Ww NY = so 3s 0a Ss 3 k WO bY = CO 15 installed? A. No, | was not. Q. You don't know when it was put on? A. | don't know when it was. Q. You have no way of judging how long it had been . there, right? A. _No. Q. Is that correct? A. That's correct. Q. That's the same for Bechtel and Dillingham and Plant, correct? A _Yes, Q. In terms of what was in it, you don't know, do you? A. | don't know how old the material is. Q. As a result of the work that Plant did at the Avon — do you want to stop? MR. BRAYTON: Let's go off the record. (Recess taken.) MR. BRAYTON: Mrs. Juelch is in discomfort to the point where she doesn't feel she's able to concentrate and appropriately respond. We're done for the day. MR. BROWN: Back in the morning at what time? MR. BRAYTON: At 9:00. 181 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/16/2009oOo OWN OOH KR WIN MN NY HY YM KN |= |= Ba Ba a a sas aw a a BF BO NY = C0 Oo DN OD TO FF WwW DY = STATE OF CALIFORNIA) ) COUNTY OF ALAMEDA _ ) I, SANDRA M. LEE, do hereby certify: That JOYCE JUELCH, in the foregoing deposition named, was present and by me sworn as a witness in the above-entitled action at the time and place therein specified; That said deposition was taken before me at said time and place, and was taken down in shorthand by me, a Certified Shorthand Reporter of the State of California, and was thereafter transcribed into typewriting, and that the foregoing transcript constitutes a full, true and correct report of said deposition and of the proceedings that took place; IN WITNESS WHEREOF, | have hereunder subscribed my hand this 14th day of October 2009. Finda M. Bur SANDRA M. LEE, CSR No. 9971 State of California 184 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/16/2009oo HW NN ODO OH FF WB HY = BO MY MY NY NY NY BSB Ba ea a a aw aw a Ss ao fF WN f= 090 6G ON DOD oO F Ww NY = IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN FRANCISCO ---000--- JOYCE JUELCH and NORMAN JUELCH, Plaintiffs, No. 275212 vs. ASBESTOS DEFENDANTS, Defendants. DISCOVERY DEPOSITION OF JOYCE JUELCH VOLUME II (Pages 185 to 317, inclusive) Taken before SANDRA M. LEE CSR No. 9971 September 17, 2009 185Oo oN Oo oO FF WO DY = mM MO NM NYS NY MY. =e |= =e aoa se a oa ao a a a F&F O6© NY |= C0 G&G A NN Do fF Oo NH |= 2D A. And wire. | took wire. Q. In total -- what did you do the rest of the time? That is, when you weren't retrieving and staging the material for the insulators and after they had removed the insulation, what else did you do there? A. | done cleanup. Q. And how did you clean up? A. If the items were big,-| picked them up with my hands and put them in the box. And | had a small little rake; it wasn't a big one. It was just a little small one that | used in my box to try to put the material together in order to pick it up. You had to be careful, because if you crumbled it, you had an awful lot of dust that would come from it. That was part of my job, to pick up after my mechanics, my insulators. a. Who gave you that instruction to clean up after your crew? A. It's the foreman. Qa. Did the other apprentices also clean up with their crews? A. They cleaned up their crews. Qa. Did you understand that this was part of the . contract, that the contractor was to keep the work area clean? at A. Yes. a 211 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/17/2009oO on Oo Oo FF WwW DY = MP NM NM NB MY NY BSB Be Bia =a oa ow a as a a F&F WwW YH |= FD OG OB nN DOD oO FF WOW NY |= OO Qa And that was part of the process at any of the refineries you worked at, correct? A. Yes. _ Q. The contractor was supposed to keep the area clean? A. We were to keep our area clean. Q. Do you know who purchased the insulation that was being installed by the mechanics? MR. BRAYTON: Vague. THE WITNESS: No, | don't. oe BY MR. BROWN: Q. Let me ask you this: Were these, again, time-and-material contracts? A. When we were out there, it was not on a time-and-material. Q. What was the basis -- A. It was just hourly. Q. Hourly? A. Yeah. Q. Who was responsible to purchase the insulation that you used -- that was used by your mechanics during the two months that you worked at the Avon Refinery? MR. BRAYTON: Lacks foundation. THE WITNESS: Steve Steele was our -- our general foreman out there, and I'm sure he went through 212 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/17/2009Oo on DW oO FF Ww NY = NM NY NY MY NY B@ Ba sa sa sae a aw a aw a a FF Ow NO = OO DN DOD OH fF Ww NY = OO A. No. Qa. Now, in terms of these other contractors, _ —_—___eeeeeereovwsw ews Dillingham, for instance, did you see Dillingham laborers on the job? A. | just seen -- all | seen was the pipefitters, because they drove up to the valve that they were going to work on. Q. Did you see any Bechtel laborers? A. | did not see any Bechtel laborers. Q. Now, did Tosco cause you to be exposed to asbestos when you were working at the Avon Refinery? A. | feel they did. Q. How did they do that? A. | feel that they were -- they were spreading it around, their cleaning. | feel | was exposed to it. | feel some of the material on the ground was asbestos. Q. How do you know that some of the material on the ground was asbestos? A. It's — MR. BRAYTON: Argumentative. BY MR. BROWN: Q. In other words, you didn't have it tested? A. No. | didn't have it tested. Q. You weren't around when the original insulation was installed? 223 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/17/2009oOo ON OOO eke BYOB My NM NY NY NY NY B@B Ba se aoa a ao aw a a a ao fF oO Yo = 909 6 ODN Do KF WwW DY = A. No. MR: BRAYTON: Argumentative, asked and answered. BY MR. BROWN: Qa. You weren't there when the original gaskets or packing were installed, correct? | MR. BRAYTON: Argumentative, asked and 5 answered. . BY MR. BROWN: Q. Is that correct? A. Yes. That's correct. _ Q. Then how would you know whether there was _ asbestos in this dust that you saw? MR. BRAYTON: Argumentative. THE WITNESS: Because asbestos was placed out there. We've used this pipe covering out there at Tosco, and | was unaware whether or not in these areas it had been replaced. | know other crafts has worked out there over the period of years. It could be on the ground, and if you're sweeping it up and it's flying around, you can be exposed to it. BY MR. BROWN: Q. | understand that. What I'm saying is: How do you know that the dust that you saw there contained asbestos? 224 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/17/2009= oclcoOoOmlUlUrOrMmUNULUOODUCUCUMOCCUROUDN Did you see any Tosco person? A. Tosco people, no. Q. The Dillingham person or people that you saw removing pipe covering, how do you know it contained asbestos? MR. BRAYTON: Asked and answered, argumentative. THE WITNESS: | cannot say that it was asbestos because | did not have it tested. BY MR. BROWN: Q. The same thing for Bechtel, you can't say that was asbestos either, can you? MR. BRAYTON: Same objections. THE WITNESS: No. | did not have it tested. BY MR. BROWN: Q. The ground that you saw these Tosco clean-up crews cleaning, you don't know that that dust had asbestos in it either, do you? MR. BRAYTON: Same objections. THE WITNESS: No. | cannot say it had asbestos BY MR. BROWN: Q. And the reason you can't is because you didn't see the material being -- ees eee A. Applied. 226 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/17/2009= oon Do fF WwW DY 10 @. = applied, and you didn't have the dust , tested — Jesiee MR. BRAYTON: Asked and answered. BY MR. BROWN: Q. -- that you saw, correct? MR. BRAYTON: - Counsel, this is getting abusive and harassing. MR. BROWN: | don't mean to do that. | just want to -- MR. BRAYTON: You've made the point three times. You don't need to make it a fourth time. MR. BROWN: Would you read my question back? (Record read.) MR. BRAYTON: When was it that you didn't ask that question before, Counsel? BY MR. BROWN: Q. Am | correct? A. Yes. _ Qa When you were working as an apprentice in 1982, are you aware of any manufacturer of pipe covering or block that included asbestos in their product? ee ee eeesreere eee MR. BRAYTON: That was being manufactured in cS that year? —_——-> BY MR. BROWN: a. That was being manufactured when you started 227 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/17/2009| : | | | oO ON DOD oH fF Ww NY = NM NY N NY KN = B= as se sa ao sas a a a a & WwW NY = 9D O© OD N DOD HO BF Ww NH =| working as an apprentice. A. They were still using the black mastic. They were still using Foster fibrous adhesive. MR. BRAYTON: His question was as to pipe covering and block. Do you know if any manufacturer in 1982 was manufacturing pipe covering or block that contained asbestos? Lcomained asbestos? THE WITNESS: No. | don't know. BY MR. BROWN: @. Now, you told us the other day that you started doing research on asbestos, and that was about in your third — A. Third year. Q. -- year. That would be in about 1985? A. 1985. Qa. And you were doing this computer research, correct? A. Correct. Qa. And you were reading about the various types of conditions that could be caused by exposure to asbestos. ‘Do you recall that? A. Yes. Q. Did you share that information with Mr. Juelch? . A | talked to him about it, yes. 228 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/17/2009oo oc OWN DOD oOo FF Ww NY = mM MBM NM HB MYM NY B&B B=B B@ oa oa sw a ae a a a F&F oO NH = 0G G&G WD N DOD oO FF WwW NY = A. Them were the only two that | recall being there that | recognized, which was Dillingham and Bechtel. Q. To step back, as you recall, yesterday we were talking a bit about your time at Shell, your very first outing as an apprentice. You recall that, right? A. Yes. 5 : Q. _ Do you-recall the identity of any other contractors besides Plant that were out at Shell during the time you were working there? A. Dillingham was there. Q. Do you know what Dillingham was doing? A. They were working on the -- the valves, on one ° , ——— of the valves that -- actually, it was not very far down from where our shack was, what we called our shack. They were working on a valve down there. Q. Was the Dillingham trade that was out there pipefitters? A. They were pipefitters, yes. Q. Do you recall any other trades that were out there while you were there? MR. BRAYTON: Other trades associated with Dillingham or other trades? MR. POESCHL: Period. 234 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/17/2009oOo © N DOD on FF Ww NY = = oO are never supposed to remove insulation? A. They're not supposed to remove insulation. Q. And did you make any report of that? A. | told my boss. Q. Did you tell the pipefitters? A. | did tell the pipefitters that that was the _insulators' job, was to remove the insulation from any of the piping or valves. Q. What was the upshot of you passing along that information; was there any investigation or discipline applied? A. | do not know. | just know that | had expressed it to my general foreman at that time. Q. All of this work where you were -- the Bechtel people were taking off insulation from the valves, that was out of doors, correct? A. it was outdoors, yes. Q. And pardon me for — | couldn't tell which of the two months in 1983 you started there. | thought | heard September, but then | thought | heard December. Did you start in December? A. It was in September when | first went out to the job. Q. September of 1983 through October of 19837 MR. BRAYTON: Are you asking about Tosco now, 254 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/17/2009o 0 Oo NO oO BR Ww NY = my NM NY YB NY YN Be BSB BS |B Bs |S BSB ao = a a fF wo NY = 909 Oo DN Da fF WOW NY = Counsel? MR. ARNESON: Yes, | am. MR. BRAYTON: I think her testimony about ee September was when she first went out to Shell, the very first job. I'm not sure she's testified to a specific month in 1983. BY MR. ARNESON: Qa. I'm only interested in Tosco right now. . Can you tell me when you first went to Tosco, ma'am? MR. BRAYTON: Asked and answered. 1983. Do you want to know if she knows more specifically in 1983? MR. ARNESON: Yes, | do. MR. BRAYTON: Do you know more specifically in a 1983 when you did the work out at Tosco? THE WITNESS: | believe it was around May or June, because it was summer months. BY MR. ARNESON: Q. So it was during the summer? A. Yes. MR. ARNESON: I don't think | have anything further at this time. Thank you very much, ma'am. MR. BRAYTON: Other follow-up on the Tosco or Shell Refinery work in 1982, 1983? 255 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/17/2009oO on ODO oO FF WO NY = mM MBM NY DB NY NY |= = = sae ae sos wos a a mo a FB WO Yo |= O09 o6© &®B NN OO oO fF WO NY | FD EXAMINATION BY MR. BROWN: Q. Let me ask one question about this Dillingham and Bechtel work, eee Did the insulation that Dillingham and Bechtel removed contain asbestos? MR. BRAYTON: Asked and answered, Counsel. MR. BROWN: | don't think we asked about Dillingham and Bechtel. THE WITNESS: | could not say yes due to the fact | wasn't there when it was — it was put on. BY MR. BROWN: Q. You told us about Shell, and you told us about Tosco. The other place you worked was Dow, is that correct? A. Dow Chemical. Qa. Did you ever work at a Union Oi] Company or Unocal Refinery? A. No. Qa Do you claim exposure to asbestos as a result. of anyone working at a Union Oil Company or Unocal Refinery? MR. BRAYTON: Objection to the question of claim. I'llinstruct her not to answer. It calls for a tegal conclusion, and it may invade attorney-client 256 Aiken Welch Court Reporters Joyce Juelch 9/17/2009= oO ON DOD oO FF WYO NY 258 Unocal? MR. BRAYTON: Same objection. THE WITNESS: | was trying to think if my husband worked there, but | would have to say no. MR. BROWN: Thank you. Can we take a short break so | can talk to the other defendants? MR. BRAYTON: It's about break time, anyway