Preview
FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 05/31/2024 11:51 PM INDEX NO. 651341/2020
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 222 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 05/31/2024
11/2/2023 Bruce Kim v. XP Securities, LLC et al. Robert Kim
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SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK 1 November 2, 2023
COUNTY OF NEW YORK
2 1:06 p.m.
-----------------------------------------X
3
BRUCE KIM, :
Plaintiff, : 4
-against- :Index No. 5
XP SECURITIES, LLC, n/k/a XP INVESTMENTS : 651341/2020 6
US, LLC, XP INVESTIMENTOS S.A. and :
7
PEDRO HENRIQUE CRISTOFORDO DA SILVEIRA, :
8
Defendants. :
-----------------------------------------X 9 DEPOSITION OF ROBERT KIM,
10 held on the above-mentioned date and time at
DEPOSITION OF ROBERT KIM
11 the offices of Morgan Lewis & Bockius LLP,
November 2, 2023
12 before Sara Freund, a Certified Shorthand
MORGAN LEWIS & BOCKIUS LLP
101 Park Avenue 13 Reporter and Notary Public within and for
New York, New York 10178 14 the State of New York.
15
16
17
Reported by:
SARA FREUND, CSR 18
______________________________________________________ 19
DIGITAL EVIDENCE GROUP
20
1730 M Street, NW, Suite 812
21
Washington, D.C. 20036
(202) 232-0646 22
Page 3 Page 4
1 A P P E A R A N C E S: 1 INDEX
2 2 EXAMINATION BY PAGE
3 THE LAW OFFICES OF LAWRENCE OH 3 MR. OH 9, 201
Attorneys for Plaintiff
4 MR. PARR 121
4 62 Cooper Street Square - 2nd floor
5
New York, New York 10003
6 NEW REFERENCED EXHIBITS
5 BY: LAWRENCE P. OH, ESQ.
6
7 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
7 KASOWITZ BENSON TORRES, LLP 8 KIM-1 Meeting details 71
8 Attorneys for Defendants 9 KIM-2 E-mail-Bates 12626 72
9 Paramount Plaza 10 KIM-3 E-mail/meeting details-
10 1633 Broadway 11 Bates 13643 75
11 New York, NY 10019 12 KIM-4 E-mail-Bates 13739 76
12 BY: BRIAN S. CHOI, ESQ. 13 KIM-5 E-mail-Bates 28834 78
13 HENRY K. PARR, ESQ. 14 KIM-6 E-mail-Bates 3293 85
14 15 KIM-7 E-mail-Bates 22598 93
15 MORGAN LEWIS & BOCKIUS LLP
16 KIM-8 E-mail-Bates 23708 99
16 Attorneys for Witness
17 KIM-9 E-mail-Bates 23751 101
17 101 Park Avenue
18 KIM-10 E-mail-Bates 35024 103
18 New York, New York 10178
19 BY: BRENDAN KILLEEN, ESQ.
19 KIM-11 E-mail-Bates 476676 109
20 20 KIM-12 E-mail-Bates 35325 113
21 ALSO PRESENT: Michael Lee 21 KIM-13 E-mail-Bates 36067 116
22 Bruce Kim - via Zoom 22 KIM-14 E-mail-Bates 36176 118
1 (Pages 1 to 4)
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FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 05/31/2024 11:51 PM INDEX NO. 651341/2020
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 222 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 05/31/2024
11/2/2023 Bruce Kim v. XP Securities, LLC et al. Robert Kim
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1 NEW REFERENCED EXHIBITS CON'T 1 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and
2 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 2 between the attorneys for the respective
3 KIM-15 E-mail-Bates 1512 135 3 parties herein, and in compliance with Rule
4 KIM-16 E-mail-Bates 5634 164 4 221 of the Uniform Rules for the Trial
5 KIM-17 E-mail/Agreement-Bates 36440 176 5 Courts:
6 KIM-18 E-mail-Bates 29682 179 6 THAT the parties recognize the provision
7 KIM-19 E-mail-Bates 12830 184 7 of Rule 3115 subdivisions (b), (c) and/or
8 8 (d). An objection made at a deposition is
9 9 taken and the answer shall be given and the
10 10 deposition shall proceed subject to the
11 11 objections and to the right of a person to
12 12 apply for appropriate relief pursuant to
13 13 Article 31 of CPLR.
14 14 THAT every objection raised during a
15 15 deposition shall be stated succinctly and
16 16 framed as not to suggest an answer to the
17 17 deponent and, at the request of the
18 18 questioning attorney, shall include a clear
19 19 statement as to any defect in or on the
20 20 basis of error or irregularity. Except to
21 21 the extent permitted by CPLR Rule 3115 or by
22 22 the rule, during the course of the
Page 7 Page 8
1 examination persons in attendance shall not 1 or the communication is made for the purpose
2 make statements of comments that interfere 2 of determining whether the question should
3 with questioning. 3 not be answered on the grounds set forth in
4 THAT a deponent shall answer all questions 4 section 221.2 of these rules and, in such
5 in a deposition, except (i) to preserve a 5 event, the reason for the communication
6 privileged right of confidentiality, (ii) to 6 shall be stated for the record succinctly
7 enforce a limitation set forth in an order 7 and clearly.
8 of a court, or (iii) when the question is 8 THAT failure to object to any question or
9 plainly improper and would, if answered, 9 to move to strike any testimony at this
10 cause significant prejudice to any person. 10 examination shall not be a bar or waiver to
11 An attorney shall not direct a deponent not 11 make such objection or motion at the time of
12 to answer except as provided in CPLR Rule 12 the trial of this action and is hereby
13 3115 or this subdivision. Any refusal to 13 reserved; and
14 answer or direction not to answer shall be 14 THAT this examination may be signed and
15 accompanied by a succinct and clear 15 sworn to by the witness examined herein
16 statement of the basis therefore. If the 16 before any Notary Public, but failure to do
17 deponent does not answer a question, the 17 so or to return the original of the
18 examining party shall have the right to 18 examination to the attorney on whose behalf
19 complete the remainder of the deposition. 19 the examination is taken shall not be deemed
20 THAT an attorney shall not interrupt the 20 a waiver of the rights provided by Rules
21 deposition for the purpose of communicating 21 3116 and 3117 of the CPLR, and shall be
22 with the deponent unless all parties consent 22 controlled thereby, and
2 (Pages 5 to 8)
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NYSCEF DOC. NO. 222 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 05/31/2024
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1 THAT certification and filing of the 1 the deposition of you this afternoon.
2 original of this examination are waived; and 2 Before I ask some of the more background
3 THAT the questioning attorney shall 3 questions leading into the substantive
4 provide counsel for the witness examined 4 questions, I just want to ask you if you had
5 herein with a copy of this examination at no 5 any medications that you've taken today or
6 charge. 6 in the last 24 hours that may impact on your
7 7 ability to give deposition testimony today?
8 8 A. No.
9 9 Q. Mr. Kim, have you had any
10 R O B E R T K I M, after having first been 10 conversations with your attorney -- without
11 duly affirmed by a Notary Public of the 11 betraying what the substance of those
12 State of New York, was examined and 12 conversations were -- concerning your
13 testified as follows: 13 deposition here today?
14 Q. State your name and address for the 14 A. I mean, generally, yes.
15 record. 15 Q. And Mr. Kim, have you reviewed any
16 A. Robert H. Kim, 383 Madison Avenue, 16 documents or e-mails provided by myself to
17 New York, New York 10179. 17 your attorney?
18 EXAMINATION BY 18 A. I have.
19 MR. OH: 19 Q. And as part of your review of those
20 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kim. My name 20 documents, have you executed a
21 is Lawrence Oh. I'm one of Bruce Kim's 21 confidentiality stipulation?
22 attorneys, and we are going to be conducting 22 THE WITNESS: I did.
Page 11 Page 12
1 MR. KILLEEN: Yes. 1 was 1995, and MBA, 1997.
2 A. Yes. 2 Q. Have you had any occasion recently
3 Q. Beyond the documents that were 3 to go up to the new Columbia Business School
4 submitted to you by me through your 4 campus?
5 attorney, have you received any other 5 A. I have not.
6 documents or sample questions or any kind of 6 Q. Where do you currently work now?
7 outline as to how this deposition is going 7 A. I work at JP Morgan.
8 to be taking place in terms of substance? 8 Q. How long have you worked at JP
9 A. No. 9 Morgan?
10 Q. What is your educational 10 A. I started in -- what is it -- March
11 background? 11 of 2006, so it would be 18 years.
12 A. Graduate of Tufts University, 12 Q. What was your first job in Finance,
13 undergraduate Master's degree from Fordham 13 where was it?
14 University and an MBA from Columbia Business 14 A. My first job in Finance?
15 School. 15 Q. Yes.
16 Q. Your Master's degree, what was that 16 A. My very first job in Finance was on
17 in? 17 the American Stock Exchange in 1991.
18 A. Economics. 18 Q. What was your title?
19 Q. What were the years in which you 19 A. Well, it's called a reporter, but
20 obtained these degrees? 20 it's really just reporting transactions.
21 A. My undergraduate degree was 1991, 21 Q. How long did you have that job for?
22 my Master's in Economics was -- I think it 22 A. About a year, I believe?
3 (Pages 9 to 12)
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FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 05/31/2024 11:51 PM INDEX NO. 651341/2020
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 222 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 05/31/2024
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1 Q. Can you just walk us through the 1 A. As a trader, yes, trading Asian
2 different jobs you held in Finance from 2 currencies. So from 1997, I spent a total
3 there to when you began working at JP Morgan 3 of 6 1/2 years in Asia. The first year I
4 in 2006? 4 was in Singapore -- all with Merrill Lynch
5 A. Sure. So after that, I began 5 -- then a year-and-a-half in Honk Kong and
6 working for National Westminster Bank, so 6 then four years in Tokyo, all with Merrill
7 that, I believe, was 1992 and -- I didn't 7 Lynch and trading Asian currencies during
8 prepare for these questions, this is all 8 that time. I moved back in 2004 to the U.S.
9 from memory now -- from 1992 until 1995, I 9 with Merrill Lynch and worked for Merrill
10 worked at NatWest, and then I worked for one 10 Lynch until 2006 in New York trading Asian
11 year at Bank Hapoalim in New York, which is 11 currencies. I moved to JP Morgan in 2006
12 an Israeli bank. And I started attending 12 and I've been at JP Morgan since 2006, but I
13 Columbia Business School, that was fall of 13 came to JP Morgan trading Asian currencies.
14 1995, something like that. I graduate from 14 Q. What were the different titles that
15 Columbia Business School in the spring of 15 you held at Merrill Lynch?
16 1997. I then started working for Merrill 16 A. So, I started as an associate at
17 Lynch. For the first three months I worked 17 Merrill out of business school, and by the
18 for Merrill Lynch in New York Downtown. I 18 time I left I was executive director. And
19 then went to Asia, so that was in 19 then, when I joined JP Morgan, I joined as
20 October 1997 -- 20 managing director.
21 Q. You worked at Merrill Lynch as a 21 Q. Is that your title still?
22 trader? 22 A. Yes.
Page 15 Page 16
1 Q. As managing director, how many 1 explain what it means to be a market maker?
2 traders do you oversee? 2 A. Sure. So, a market maker is
3 A. I mean, it varies; some people come 3 somebody who provides a price. The entity
4 and go. Currently, 11, I believe it is. 4 requesting that price generally is a client,
5 Q. And that's all in Asian foreign 5 or we would consider the requester of a
6 currencies? 6 price a client, but not always. So, a
7 A. No. So, subsequent to joining JP 7 client could be an institutional investor,
8 Morgan in 2006, I took over responsibilities 8 like a real money account or a mutual fund
9 for managing also G10 FX in New York. So I 9 or something like that or a hedge fund or an
10 manage three traders -- I mean, this is 10 insurance company. It could be a
11 current, but it's changed over the years -- 11 corporation. It could be a government
12 currently I manage three traders -- Asia FX 12 entity, like a central bank. These are just
13 traders in New York, three Asia FX traders 13 generally who we consider clients. But as a
14 in London, and the rest trade G10 FX in New 14 trader, you may also -- there may be
15 York. 15 occasion where you make a price for other
16 Q. I just want to review some 16 interbank, so by interbank that means other
17 vocabulary. I'm a little new to this 17 banks; so traders at other banks will
18 subject matter, so it will be kind-of an 18 sometimes ask for a price, and there is no
19 elementary discussion, if you can lower it 19 obligation, whereas, I would say for
20 to that level for me and perhaps for the 20 clients, like the ones I described
21 record so it's a little bit easier to read 21 originally -- again, it's not necessarily
22 for people not in the market. Can you 22 strictly obligatory, but in a business
4 (Pages 13 to 16)
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NYSCEF DOC. NO. 222 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 05/31/2024
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1 you're going to try to accommodate that -- 1 A. A market taker would be somebody
2 so a market maker will make a price where 2 that I had described, somebody who is asking
3 they're willing to take risk or accept risk 3 for a price would be considered a taker. So
4 from the other, whoever is requesting a 4 the person making a price is the market
5 price in something, whatever instrument that 5 maker, the person asking for the price and
6 may be. 6 dealing on that price should they choose to
7 Q. And you have been a market maker in 7 do that is the market taker.
8 your capacity as managing director at JP 8 Q. Can you also explain order
9 Morgan. 9 streaming, as well as market data, consumer
10 A. I was for the first -- I'm trying 10 market data, and how that relates to a
11 to think how long -- so, I went from also 11 market maker?
12 being a market maker, personally market 12 MR. KILLEEN: Objection to form.
13 making, up until maybe 2016, I guess, to 13 Can you break it out, Mr. Oh?
14 just basically purely managing traders after 14 MR. OH: Sure.
15 that point. It was basically after I took 15 Q. Can you explain what it means to
16 over the G10 FX part, as well. 16 consume market data, for a market maker to
17 Q. So you manage the market making 17 consume market data?
18 functionalities of JP Morgan from where you 18 A. Well, as a market maker, there may
19 sit now. 19 be numerous inputs taken into account when
20 A. Correct. 20 creating a price or making a price to
21 Q. And then, just by way of contrast, 21 whoever is requesting that price, one of
22 a market taker is? 22 those things could be market data, so, in
Page 19 Page 20
1 other words, how the observation of the 1 willing to buy or sell, then you can
2 market is trading, or what is the prevailing 2 consider that an order. So, if you are
3 level of prices of instruments in the 3 putting a price in where you're willing to
4 market, or other correlated instruments, it 4 transact which somebody else can then deal
5 could be news headlines, it could be -- 5 on, that is really more of a price-making
6 anything that could potentially affect the 6 capacity, and in that capacity you may be
7 price that is shown by a market maker is 7 streaming a price to the market or to
8 going to be consumed by the market maker -- 8 whoever has the ability to transact on that
9 it may or may not be. 9 price; so that's what streaming means.
10 Q. And the second part of that is 10 Q. Can you explain a couple of
11 explain what it means to stream orders for a 11 products in the foreign exchange markets, in
12 market maker? 12 particular outrights versus swaps?
13 A. Well, I think the word order can be 13 A. Sure. So, an outright is basically
14 used maybe, like, an order in some context, 14 an agreement between the counterparties to
15 I guess, could be used interchangeably with 15 exchange currencies at some future date, so
16 price. 16 it's similar to a spot transaction, which is
17 Q. Would it make a difference if I 17 also an agreement to exchange currencies,
18 used the term order routing? 18 except that the spot transaction occurs in
19 A. It doesn't matter whether it's a 19 whatever is the convention for a particular
20 market maker or a market taker. If somebody 20 currency pair, usually it's two days from
21 is expressing an interest or putting a firm 21 today when you settle it. An outright is an
22 interest into the market that they're 22 agreement to exchange currencies at some
5 (Pages 17 to 20)
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NYSCEF DOC. NO. 222 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 05/31/2024
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1 future date, so if you say a one-month 1 Q. Is it fair to use the term
2 outright, that's an agreement to exchange 2 relational price in describing a swap
3 currencies in one month's time. A swap is a 3 transaction?
4 combination of a spot trade and an outright 4 A. Could you --
5 trade or some -- it's basically a 5 Q. Or a relational trade?
6 combination of two outrights or a spot and 6 A. I'm not quite sure what that means.
7 an outright but in opposite directions; so 7 Q. Let me see if I can provide a
8 there is actually no FX risk, it's more 8 slightly more refined question as we go
9 forward risk. I don't know if that makes 9 forward. Can you explain or describe the
10 sense or not. 10 relationship between an interdealer broker
11 Q. It does. 11 and a trader?
12 Is it fair to describe an outright 12 A. Yes. So, an interdealer broker is
13 transaction as one that is -- is it fair to 13 somebody who is facilitating transactions
14 use the term directional trade in describing 14 between other market makers, meaning other
15 or defining an outright? 15 banks; so it could be XYZ Bank on one side,
16 A. Yes. 16 ABC Bank on the other side, the interdealer
17 Q. Meaning it's a one-way direction, 17 broker is helping to facilitate those two
18 correct? 18 banks being able to transact with each
19 A. Correct. 19 other. Typically, what happens is that
20 MR. KILLEEN: Just make sure to let 20 broker may receive indications of interest,
21 Mr. Oh finish his question. 21 like Bank A may want to buy, Bank B may be
22 THE WITNESS: Sure. 22 looking to sell, Bank A may show a bid in
Page 23 Page 24
1 the market, Bank B may be showing an offer 1 because if you're transacting directly,
2 in the market, that's where we have a 2 you're only, by definition, trading with
3 two-way price. If one party decides to 3 that one bank, you may only be able to
4 aggress -- if the buyer decides to just buy 4 transact a certain amount, whereas, when
5 at the seller's price, then that may 5 you're going through a broker, there are
6 transact through the broker. 6 multiple banks who are plugged in to the
7 Q. Why can't one trader just contact 7 broker, you may be able to transact much
8 another trader? 8 larger amounts. If you're looking to do a
9 A. They can. 9 much larger amount, they would be able to
10 Q. Then why use an interdealer broker? 10 facilitate that.
11 A. There's a number of reasons why you 11 Q. Are there any regulatory reasons
12 might do that. Number one is anonymity. 12 why certain transactions or why interdealer
13 For whatever reason that may be, a bank may 13 brokers are required or necessary to the
14 not want other banks to know what their 14 market?
15 interest is in the market. It could be a 15 MR. KILLEEN: I'm just going to
16 variety reasons, because they actually have 16 object to these questions. Obviously,
17 quite a large amount to do and they don't 17 Mr. Kim is here in his individual
18 want to signal that to the market, or a 18 capacity. Some of these questions are
19 certain bank may have a reputation or a 19 asking about globally how actors in this
20 style in trading and not want that -- 20 market may be acting. So if your
21 anyway, there are various reasons why a bank 21 questions are to Mr. Kim in terms of his
22 may want anonymity. Another reason is 22 own personal knowledge with respect to
6 (Pages 21 to 24)
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NYSCEF DOC. NO. 222 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 05/31/2024
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1 what he believes might be the motives, 1 a broker at that point, but he was a broker.
2 that's fine, but to the extent that 2 I met him, just we had met for drinks with
3 you're asking for other actors' 3 other traders -- I tagged along for drinks
4 actions -- 4 with other traders from Merrill Lynch.
5 MR. OH: Sure. I can withdraw the 5 Q. Do you recall today the different
6 question. Perhaps other questions that 6 brokerages that he's worked for since you
7 may have more global reach that may 7 met him?
8 impact directly or more particularly in 8 A. Well, Prebon, I believe, was the
9 this case, I'll try to frame it in a 9 first one. I don't know when he joined
10 more specific way. 10 ICAP, but I believe he was at ICAP until he
11 Q. You know Bruce Kim, yes? 11 started working for XP.
12 A. I do. 12 Q. And Mr. Kim was working for
13 Q. Do you remember what year you met 13 interdealer brokers of the type that we were
14 him? 14 just speaking of, yes? These are
15 A. I think it was right before I 15 interdealer brokers, Prebon, ICAP and XP, at
16 actually went to Asia, so I want to say it 16 least in the capacity that he was working
17 was 1997. 17 for them?
18 Q. And what type of work was Bruce 18 A. I assume, yes, that's the capacity.
19 doing at the time, in 1997? 19 Q. Did Bruce ever broke for you over
20 A. I believe, at the time, he was 20 the course of your relationship with him?
21 working for a brokerage shop called Prebon. 21 A. Yes.
22 I don't know how long he had been working as 22 Q. Was that early in meeting him,
Page 27 Page 28
1 perhaps even in 1997? 1 you. I don't know.
2 A. No. I don't know exactly the time- 2 Q. Without assigning a specific number
3 frame that I started dealing with Bruce, but 3 or percentage, is it fair to say that it was
4 it did start while I was still working in 4 a significant number of trades?
5 Asia. Bruce was always working as a broker 5 A. Yes, it definitely would have been
6 in New York, but I do remember meeting him 6 significant.
7 in 1997, when I was working in my capacity 7 Q. Just more generally, how many
8 as a trader for Merrill Lynch in Asia, there 8 different banks trade Asian foreign
9 were times where I would need to transact or 9 currencies in New York?
10 trade during New York hours, so that's how 10 A. I don't know. I couldn't tell
11 it started. That's kind-of the early period 11 you -- I mean, definitely more than ten.
12 when I started dealing through Bruce, so 12 Q. Would 25 seem about right to you?
13 basically dealing in New York hours because 13 A. Possibly.
14 he was a New York broker. Again, I don't 14 Q. What about London, would you know?
15 remember when that started. It would have 15 A. Probably similar, I would guess.
16 been in the late '90s, I guess. 16 I'm not an authority on it so...
17 Q. Can you describe, using a term 17 Q. Just generally speaking, from a
18 that's more familiar to you, what percentage 18 trader's perspective, what makes for a good
19 of trades you used Bruce as your broker as 19 broker?
20 opposed to other brokers over the course of 20 A. I mean, it's a very qualitative
21 your relationship? 21 question, but I can only speak from personal
22 A. I don't recall. I couldn't tell 22 preference, personal experience --
7 (Pages 25 to 28)
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NYSCEF DOC. NO. 222 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 05/31/2024
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1 Q. That's what I'm asking. 1 A. So, he was definitely one of the
2 A. -- an understanding of a trader's 2 most competent, if not the most competent
3 particular trading style. Also, an 3 broker that I dealt with. So, again, like,
4 understanding of that trader's institution 4 I couldn't tell you what percentage of
5 and kind-of risk profile or the degree to 5 trades I did with him, but to use that
6 which that trader might need to transact, 6 analogy, like, he knew how I like my coffee,
7 like some banks may have a much larger 7 so I could trust that if I expressed an
8 franchise than others. And then, also, a 8 interest to him of what I was looking to do
9 particular trader's trading style is also 9 in the market, that he would take due care
10 very important. For me, personally, what I 10 in handling that interest.
11 valued in the brokers that I would tend to 11 Q. Generally speaking, in broking,
12 use more than others is the ability to 12 from a creator's perspective, over the
13 retain or to take into consideration where I 13 course of your career, what comment can you
14 might have had an interest to transact 14 provide on broker opacity versus broker
15 something before, and then, when the 15 transparency?
16 opposite interest comes into the market, to 16 A. Sorry, can you repeat?
17 bring that to me. I mean, good customer 17 Q. Broker opacity versus transparency.
18 service, I guess, is the best way to put it. 18 A. But what are you asking?
19 But you would do that with anything, like 19 Q. With respect to prices. Does that
20 somebody who knows how you like your coffee. 20 question make sense to you at all -- not
21 Q. What did you think of Bruce as a 21 exactly?
22 broker? 22 A. Maybe you can rephrase.
Page 31 Page 32
1 Q. Sure. Are you familiar with the 1 Maybe I can ask a more pointed question
2 phenomenon of brokers having a particular 2 regarding Bruce. Did you find his style of
3 loyalty to a particular trader and keeping 3 broking to be transparent with you?
4 or reserving certain prices for certain 4 A. To be transparent with me?
5 traders? 5 Q. Yes.
6 A. Well, I'm not a broker, I never 6 A. Yes.
7 worked as a broker. 7 Q. Did you maintain or develop a
8 Q. Have you perceived that from your 8 personal relationship with Bruce over the
9 trading perspective that different brokers 9 course of your years knowing him, as well?
10 appear to hold more choice prices for 10 A. I mean, I worked with him. He was
11 preferred trader clients as opposed to 11 my broker for 20 years, so, yeah, I mean, I
12 others? 12 got to know him more than just a broker or a
13 MR. KILLEEN: Objection to form. 13 bank relationship. But you would have that
14 You can go ahead to the extent you 14 with anybody that you worked with for
15 understand. 15 20 years.
16 A. Again, like, not having worked as a 16 Q. That's normal in the business,
17 broker, I can't say definitively that that 17 right?
18 happened. But would I be surprised if I was 18 A. Oh, yeah, that's very common.
19 told that that happens? No, I wouldn't be 19 Q. Can you comment on Bruce's to bring
20 surprised. I don't know if that answers 20 internal liquidity from JP Morgan Seoul and
21 your question. 21 Singapore to New York and arranging internal
22 Q. That's good enough for the moment. 22 broking between JP Morgan in Asia and JP
8 (Pages 29 to 32)
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1 Morgan in New York when you were at JP 1 at XP, correct?
2 Morgan? 2 A. Sorry?
3 MR. KILLEEN: Objection to form. 3 Q. "Many years ago," meaning the
4 Q. Are you familiar with this? 4 period of time between 2018 and 2020.
5 A. No. 5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Let me see if I can come back and 6 Q. So let's use the term HUBL, and can
7 ask that question in a slightly different 7 you just explain for the record what your
8 way. 8 understanding of HUBL was?
9 Do you recall having any 9 A. Well, I can describe what I had
10 conversations with Bruce about Magic Box or 10 expressed to Bruce as far as what I would
11 HUBL? 11 like to see in a platform. If the idea for
12 A. I mean, yeah, over the course of 12 him was what he was going to create in HUBL,
13 his time at XP, in our discussions around 13 then I guess there might be some
14 what I would like to see in a platform, yes. 14 similarities between that.
15 Q. And is it your understanding that 15 Q. I'm interesting in hearing that.
16 they're one and the same, Magic Box and 16 A. So, what I had wanted to see was a
17 HUBL? 17 product where -- so, first of all, just
18 A. I believe so, but this is many 18 because JP Morgan is a very large
19 years ago at this point, so I don't recall 19 institution with a very large franchise,
20 the exact specifics. 20 what was important for us is being able to
21 Q. And "many years ago," the period of 21 transact scale, so that's a very important
22 time between 2018 and 2020, when Bruce was 22 part of our business, is the ability to
Page 35 Page 36
1 hedge large risk, and one of the things that 1 ability to market make and to be able to
2 I thought was lacking in the market was the 2 track offsetting risk to mitigate our own
3 ability to transact swaps and to hedge 3 risk in a scalable way. I don't know
4 forward risk in a very dynamic way, in a 4 whether that was his idea for HUBL, I don't
5 live way; so being able to have a techno- 5 know what his business plans were for that.
6 logical way to do that, because, at the 6 Q. Did you have any understanding that
7 time, most of the interbank brokers were 7 Bruce's concept of HUBL what he was trying
8 building screens, but there was not an 8 to bring to market at XP was a matching
9 ability to trade swaps in a dynamic way, 9 algorithm for odd-date bespoke swaps
10 which, for us, is something that is very 10 contracts?
11 important. Obviously, as a market maker, 11 A. Yes, I recall that being one of the
12 it's where you may be warehousing a lot of 12 conversations that we were having about
13 risk, you don't necessarily want to
Preview
FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 05/31/2024 11:51 PM INDEX NO. 651341/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 222 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 05/31/2024 11/2/2023 Bruce Kim v. XP Securities, LLC et al. Robert Kim Page 1 Page 2 SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK 1 November 2, 2023 COUNTY OF NEW YORK 2 1:06 p.m. -----------------------------------------X 3 BRUCE KIM, : Plaintiff, : 4 -against- :Index No. 5 XP SECURITIES, LLC, n/k/a XP INVESTMENTS : 651341/2020 6 US, LLC, XP INVESTIMENTOS S.A. and : 7 PEDRO HENRIQUE CRISTOFORDO DA SILVEIRA, : 8 Defendants. : -----------------------------------------X 9 DEPOSITION OF ROBERT KIM, 10 held on the above-mentioned date and time at DEPOSITION OF ROBERT KIM 11 the offices of Morgan Lewis & Bockius LLP, November 2, 2023 12 before Sara Freund, a Certified Shorthand MORGAN LEWIS & BOCKIUS LLP 101 Park Avenue 13 Reporter and Notary Public within and for New York, New York 10178 14 the State of New York. 15 16 17 Reported by: SARA FREUND, CSR 18 ______________________________________________________ 19 DIGITAL EVIDENCE GROUP 20 1730 M Street, NW, Suite 812 21 Washington, D.C. 20036 (202) 232-0646 22 Page 3 Page 4 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: 1 INDEX 2 2 EXAMINATION BY PAGE 3 THE LAW OFFICES OF LAWRENCE OH 3 MR. OH 9, 201 Attorneys for Plaintiff 4 MR. PARR 121 4 62 Cooper Street Square - 2nd floor 5 New York, New York 10003 6 NEW REFERENCED EXHIBITS 5 BY: LAWRENCE P. OH, ESQ. 6 7 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 7 KASOWITZ BENSON TORRES, LLP 8 KIM-1 Meeting details 71 8 Attorneys for Defendants 9 KIM-2 E-mail-Bates 12626 72 9 Paramount Plaza 10 KIM-3 E-mail/meeting details- 10 1633 Broadway 11 Bates 13643 75 11 New York, NY 10019 12 KIM-4 E-mail-Bates 13739 76 12 BY: BRIAN S. CHOI, ESQ. 13 KIM-5 E-mail-Bates 28834 78 13 HENRY K. PARR, ESQ. 14 KIM-6 E-mail-Bates 3293 85 14 15 KIM-7 E-mail-Bates 22598 93 15 MORGAN LEWIS & BOCKIUS LLP 16 KIM-8 E-mail-Bates 23708 99 16 Attorneys for Witness 17 KIM-9 E-mail-Bates 23751 101 17 101 Park Avenue 18 KIM-10 E-mail-Bates 35024 103 18 New York, New York 10178 19 BY: BRENDAN KILLEEN, ESQ. 19 KIM-11 E-mail-Bates 476676 109 20 20 KIM-12 E-mail-Bates 35325 113 21 ALSO PRESENT: Michael Lee 21 KIM-13 E-mail-Bates 36067 116 22 Bruce Kim - via Zoom 22 KIM-14 E-mail-Bates 36176 118 1 (Pages 1 to 4) www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2023 202-232-0646 FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 05/31/2024 11:51 PM INDEX NO. 651341/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 222 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 05/31/2024 11/2/2023 Bruce Kim v. XP Securities, LLC et al. Robert Kim Page 5 Page 6 1 NEW REFERENCED EXHIBITS CON'T 1 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and 2 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 2 between the attorneys for the respective 3 KIM-15 E-mail-Bates 1512 135 3 parties herein, and in compliance with Rule 4 KIM-16 E-mail-Bates 5634 164 4 221 of the Uniform Rules for the Trial 5 KIM-17 E-mail/Agreement-Bates 36440 176 5 Courts: 6 KIM-18 E-mail-Bates 29682 179 6 THAT the parties recognize the provision 7 KIM-19 E-mail-Bates 12830 184 7 of Rule 3115 subdivisions (b), (c) and/or 8 8 (d). An objection made at a deposition is 9 9 taken and the answer shall be given and the 10 10 deposition shall proceed subject to the 11 11 objections and to the right of a person to 12 12 apply for appropriate relief pursuant to 13 13 Article 31 of CPLR. 14 14 THAT every objection raised during a 15 15 deposition shall be stated succinctly and 16 16 framed as not to suggest an answer to the 17 17 deponent and, at the request of the 18 18 questioning attorney, shall include a clear 19 19 statement as to any defect in or on the 20 20 basis of error or irregularity. Except to 21 21 the extent permitted by CPLR Rule 3115 or by 22 22 the rule, during the course of the Page 7 Page 8 1 examination persons in attendance shall not 1 or the communication is made for the purpose 2 make statements of comments that interfere 2 of determining whether the question should 3 with questioning. 3 not be answered on the grounds set forth in 4 THAT a deponent shall answer all questions 4 section 221.2 of these rules and, in such 5 in a deposition, except (i) to preserve a 5 event, the reason for the communication 6 privileged right of confidentiality, (ii) to 6 shall be stated for the record succinctly 7 enforce a limitation set forth in an order 7 and clearly. 8 of a court, or (iii) when the question is 8 THAT failure to object to any question or 9 plainly improper and would, if answered, 9 to move to strike any testimony at this 10 cause significant prejudice to any person. 10 examination shall not be a bar or waiver to 11 An attorney shall not direct a deponent not 11 make such objection or motion at the time of 12 to answer except as provided in CPLR Rule 12 the trial of this action and is hereby 13 3115 or this subdivision. Any refusal to 13 reserved; and 14 answer or direction not to answer shall be 14 THAT this examination may be signed and 15 accompanied by a succinct and clear 15 sworn to by the witness examined herein 16 statement of the basis therefore. If the 16 before any Notary Public, but failure to do 17 deponent does not answer a question, the 17 so or to return the original of the 18 examining party shall have the right to 18 examination to the attorney on whose behalf 19 complete the remainder of the deposition. 19 the examination is taken shall not be deemed 20 THAT an attorney shall not interrupt the 20 a waiver of the rights provided by Rules 21 deposition for the purpose of communicating 21 3116 and 3117 of the CPLR, and shall be 22 with the deponent unless all parties consent 22 controlled thereby, and 2 (Pages 5 to 8) www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2023 202-232-0646 FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 05/31/2024 11:51 PM INDEX NO. 651341/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 222 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 05/31/2024 11/2/2023 Bruce Kim v. XP Securities, LLC et al. Robert Kim Page 9 Page 10 1 THAT certification and filing of the 1 the deposition of you this afternoon. 2 original of this examination are waived; and 2 Before I ask some of the more background 3 THAT the questioning attorney shall 3 questions leading into the substantive 4 provide counsel for the witness examined 4 questions, I just want to ask you if you had 5 herein with a copy of this examination at no 5 any medications that you've taken today or 6 charge. 6 in the last 24 hours that may impact on your 7 7 ability to give deposition testimony today? 8 8 A. No. 9 9 Q. Mr. Kim, have you had any 10 R O B E R T K I M, after having first been 10 conversations with your attorney -- without 11 duly affirmed by a Notary Public of the 11 betraying what the substance of those 12 State of New York, was examined and 12 conversations were -- concerning your 13 testified as follows: 13 deposition here today? 14 Q. State your name and address for the 14 A. I mean, generally, yes. 15 record. 15 Q. And Mr. Kim, have you reviewed any 16 A. Robert H. Kim, 383 Madison Avenue, 16 documents or e-mails provided by myself to 17 New York, New York 10179. 17 your attorney? 18 EXAMINATION BY 18 A. I have. 19 MR. OH: 19 Q. And as part of your review of those 20 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kim. My name 20 documents, have you executed a 21 is Lawrence Oh. I'm one of Bruce Kim's 21 confidentiality stipulation? 22 attorneys, and we are going to be conducting 22 THE WITNESS: I did. Page 11 Page 12 1 MR. KILLEEN: Yes. 1 was 1995, and MBA, 1997. 2 A. Yes. 2 Q. Have you had any occasion recently 3 Q. Beyond the documents that were 3 to go up to the new Columbia Business School 4 submitted to you by me through your 4 campus? 5 attorney, have you received any other 5 A. I have not. 6 documents or sample questions or any kind of 6 Q. Where do you currently work now? 7 outline as to how this deposition is going 7 A. I work at JP Morgan. 8 to be taking place in terms of substance? 8 Q. How long have you worked at JP 9 A. No. 9 Morgan? 10 Q. What is your educational 10 A. I started in -- what is it -- March 11 background? 11 of 2006, so it would be 18 years. 12 A. Graduate of Tufts University, 12 Q. What was your first job in Finance, 13 undergraduate Master's degree from Fordham 13 where was it? 14 University and an MBA from Columbia Business 14 A. My first job in Finance? 15 School. 15 Q. Yes. 16 Q. Your Master's degree, what was that 16 A. My very first job in Finance was on 17 in? 17 the American Stock Exchange in 1991. 18 A. Economics. 18 Q. What was your title? 19 Q. What were the years in which you 19 A. Well, it's called a reporter, but 20 obtained these degrees? 20 it's really just reporting transactions. 21 A. My undergraduate degree was 1991, 21 Q. How long did you have that job for? 22 my Master's in Economics was -- I think it 22 A. About a year, I believe? 3 (Pages 9 to 12) www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2023 202-232-0646 FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 05/31/2024 11:51 PM INDEX NO. 651341/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 222 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 05/31/2024 11/2/2023 Bruce Kim v. XP Securities, LLC et al. Robert Kim Page 13 Page 14 1 Q. Can you just walk us through the 1 A. As a trader, yes, trading Asian 2 different jobs you held in Finance from 2 currencies. So from 1997, I spent a total 3 there to when you began working at JP Morgan 3 of 6 1/2 years in Asia. The first year I 4 in 2006? 4 was in Singapore -- all with Merrill Lynch 5 A. Sure. So after that, I began 5 -- then a year-and-a-half in Honk Kong and 6 working for National Westminster Bank, so 6 then four years in Tokyo, all with Merrill 7 that, I believe, was 1992 and -- I didn't 7 Lynch and trading Asian currencies during 8 prepare for these questions, this is all 8 that time. I moved back in 2004 to the U.S. 9 from memory now -- from 1992 until 1995, I 9 with Merrill Lynch and worked for Merrill 10 worked at NatWest, and then I worked for one 10 Lynch until 2006 in New York trading Asian 11 year at Bank Hapoalim in New York, which is 11 currencies. I moved to JP Morgan in 2006 12 an Israeli bank. And I started attending 12 and I've been at JP Morgan since 2006, but I 13 Columbia Business School, that was fall of 13 came to JP Morgan trading Asian currencies. 14 1995, something like that. I graduate from 14 Q. What were the different titles that 15 Columbia Business School in the spring of 15 you held at Merrill Lynch? 16 1997. I then started working for Merrill 16 A. So, I started as an associate at 17 Lynch. For the first three months I worked 17 Merrill out of business school, and by the 18 for Merrill Lynch in New York Downtown. I 18 time I left I was executive director. And 19 then went to Asia, so that was in 19 then, when I joined JP Morgan, I joined as 20 October 1997 -- 20 managing director. 21 Q. You worked at Merrill Lynch as a 21 Q. Is that your title still? 22 trader? 22 A. Yes. Page 15 Page 16 1 Q. As managing director, how many 1 explain what it means to be a market maker? 2 traders do you oversee? 2 A. Sure. So, a market maker is 3 A. I mean, it varies; some people come 3 somebody who provides a price. The entity 4 and go. Currently, 11, I believe it is. 4 requesting that price generally is a client, 5 Q. And that's all in Asian foreign 5 or we would consider the requester of a 6 currencies? 6 price a client, but not always. So, a 7 A. No. So, subsequent to joining JP 7 client could be an institutional investor, 8 Morgan in 2006, I took over responsibilities 8 like a real money account or a mutual fund 9 for managing also G10 FX in New York. So I 9 or something like that or a hedge fund or an 10 manage three traders -- I mean, this is 10 insurance company. It could be a 11 current, but it's changed over the years -- 11 corporation. It could be a government 12 currently I manage three traders -- Asia FX 12 entity, like a central bank. These are just 13 traders in New York, three Asia FX traders 13 generally who we consider clients. But as a 14 in London, and the rest trade G10 FX in New 14 trader, you may also -- there may be 15 York. 15 occasion where you make a price for other 16 Q. I just want to review some 16 interbank, so by interbank that means other 17 vocabulary. I'm a little new to this 17 banks; so traders at other banks will 18 subject matter, so it will be kind-of an 18 sometimes ask for a price, and there is no 19 elementary discussion, if you can lower it 19 obligation, whereas, I would say for 20 to that level for me and perhaps for the 20 clients, like the ones I described 21 record so it's a little bit easier to read 21 originally -- again, it's not necessarily 22 for people not in the market. Can you 22 strictly obligatory, but in a business 4 (Pages 13 to 16) www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2023 202-232-0646 FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 05/31/2024 11:51 PM INDEX NO. 651341/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 222 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 05/31/2024 11/2/2023 Bruce Kim v. XP Securities, LLC et al. Robert Kim Page 17 Page 18 1 you're going to try to accommodate that -- 1 A. A market taker would be somebody 2 so a market maker will make a price where 2 that I had described, somebody who is asking 3 they're willing to take risk or accept risk 3 for a price would be considered a taker. So 4 from the other, whoever is requesting a 4 the person making a price is the market 5 price in something, whatever instrument that 5 maker, the person asking for the price and 6 may be. 6 dealing on that price should they choose to 7 Q. And you have been a market maker in 7 do that is the market taker. 8 your capacity as managing director at JP 8 Q. Can you also explain order 9 Morgan. 9 streaming, as well as market data, consumer 10 A. I was for the first -- I'm trying 10 market data, and how that relates to a 11 to think how long -- so, I went from also 11 market maker? 12 being a market maker, personally market 12 MR. KILLEEN: Objection to form. 13 making, up until maybe 2016, I guess, to 13 Can you break it out, Mr. Oh? 14 just basically purely managing traders after 14 MR. OH: Sure. 15 that point. It was basically after I took 15 Q. Can you explain what it means to 16 over the G10 FX part, as well. 16 consume market data, for a market maker to 17 Q. So you manage the market making 17 consume market data? 18 functionalities of JP Morgan from where you 18 A. Well, as a market maker, there may 19 sit now. 19 be numerous inputs taken into account when 20 A. Correct. 20 creating a price or making a price to 21 Q. And then, just by way of contrast, 21 whoever is requesting that price, one of 22 a market taker is? 22 those things could be market data, so, in Page 19 Page 20 1 other words, how the observation of the 1 willing to buy or sell, then you can 2 market is trading, or what is the prevailing 2 consider that an order. So, if you are 3 level of prices of instruments in the 3 putting a price in where you're willing to 4 market, or other correlated instruments, it 4 transact which somebody else can then deal 5 could be news headlines, it could be -- 5 on, that is really more of a price-making 6 anything that could potentially affect the 6 capacity, and in that capacity you may be 7 price that is shown by a market maker is 7 streaming a price to the market or to 8 going to be consumed by the market maker -- 8 whoever has the ability to transact on that 9 it may or may not be. 9 price; so that's what streaming means. 10 Q. And the second part of that is 10 Q. Can you explain a couple of 11 explain what it means to stream orders for a 11 products in the foreign exchange markets, in 12 market maker? 12 particular outrights versus swaps? 13 A. Well, I think the word order can be 13 A. Sure. So, an outright is basically 14 used maybe, like, an order in some context, 14 an agreement between the counterparties to 15 I guess, could be used interchangeably with 15 exchange currencies at some future date, so 16 price. 16 it's similar to a spot transaction, which is 17 Q. Would it make a difference if I 17 also an agreement to exchange currencies, 18 used the term order routing? 18 except that the spot transaction occurs in 19 A. It doesn't matter whether it's a 19 whatever is the convention for a particular 20 market maker or a market taker. If somebody 20 currency pair, usually it's two days from 21 is expressing an interest or putting a firm 21 today when you settle it. An outright is an 22 interest into the market that they're 22 agreement to exchange currencies at some 5 (Pages 17 to 20) www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2023 202-232-0646 FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 05/31/2024 11:51 PM INDEX NO. 651341/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 222 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 05/31/2024 11/2/2023 Bruce Kim v. XP Securities, LLC et al. Robert Kim Page 21 Page 22 1 future date, so if you say a one-month 1 Q. Is it fair to use the term 2 outright, that's an agreement to exchange 2 relational price in describing a swap 3 currencies in one month's time. A swap is a 3 transaction? 4 combination of a spot trade and an outright 4 A. Could you -- 5 trade or some -- it's basically a 5 Q. Or a relational trade? 6 combination of two outrights or a spot and 6 A. I'm not quite sure what that means. 7 an outright but in opposite directions; so 7 Q. Let me see if I can provide a 8 there is actually no FX risk, it's more 8 slightly more refined question as we go 9 forward risk. I don't know if that makes 9 forward. Can you explain or describe the 10 sense or not. 10 relationship between an interdealer broker 11 Q. It does. 11 and a trader? 12 Is it fair to describe an outright 12 A. Yes. So, an interdealer broker is 13 transaction as one that is -- is it fair to 13 somebody who is facilitating transactions 14 use the term directional trade in describing 14 between other market makers, meaning other 15 or defining an outright? 15 banks; so it could be XYZ Bank on one side, 16 A. Yes. 16 ABC Bank on the other side, the interdealer 17 Q. Meaning it's a one-way direction, 17 broker is helping to facilitate those two 18 correct? 18 banks being able to transact with each 19 A. Correct. 19 other. Typically, what happens is that 20 MR. KILLEEN: Just make sure to let 20 broker may receive indications of interest, 21 Mr. Oh finish his question. 21 like Bank A may want to buy, Bank B may be 22 THE WITNESS: Sure. 22 looking to sell, Bank A may show a bid in Page 23 Page 24 1 the market, Bank B may be showing an offer 1 because if you're transacting directly, 2 in the market, that's where we have a 2 you're only, by definition, trading with 3 two-way price. If one party decides to 3 that one bank, you may only be able to 4 aggress -- if the buyer decides to just buy 4 transact a certain amount, whereas, when 5 at the seller's price, then that may 5 you're going through a broker, there are 6 transact through the broker. 6 multiple banks who are plugged in to the 7 Q. Why can't one trader just contact 7 broker, you may be able to transact much 8 another trader? 8 larger amounts. If you're looking to do a 9 A. They can. 9 much larger amount, they would be able to 10 Q. Then why use an interdealer broker? 10 facilitate that. 11 A. There's a number of reasons why you 11 Q. Are there any regulatory reasons 12 might do that. Number one is anonymity. 12 why certain transactions or why interdealer 13 For whatever reason that may be, a bank may 13 brokers are required or necessary to the 14 not want other banks to know what their 14 market? 15 interest is in the market. It could be a 15 MR. KILLEEN: I'm just going to 16 variety reasons, because they actually have 16 object to these questions. Obviously, 17 quite a large amount to do and they don't 17 Mr. Kim is here in his individual 18 want to signal that to the market, or a 18 capacity. Some of these questions are 19 certain bank may have a reputation or a 19 asking about globally how actors in this 20 style in trading and not want that -- 20 market may be acting. So if your 21 anyway, there are various reasons why a bank 21 questions are to Mr. Kim in terms of his 22 may want anonymity. Another reason is 22 own personal knowledge with respect to 6 (Pages 21 to 24) www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2023 202-232-0646 FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 05/31/2024 11:51 PM INDEX NO. 651341/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 222 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 05/31/2024 11/2/2023 Bruce Kim v. XP Securities, LLC et al. Robert Kim Page 25 Page 26 1 what he believes might be the motives, 1 a broker at that point, but he was a broker. 2 that's fine, but to the extent that 2 I met him, just we had met for drinks with 3 you're asking for other actors' 3 other traders -- I tagged along for drinks 4 actions -- 4 with other traders from Merrill Lynch. 5 MR. OH: Sure. I can withdraw the 5 Q. Do you recall today the different 6 question. Perhaps other questions that 6 brokerages that he's worked for since you 7 may have more global reach that may 7 met him? 8 impact directly or more particularly in 8 A. Well, Prebon, I believe, was the 9 this case, I'll try to frame it in a 9 first one. I don't know when he joined 10 more specific way. 10 ICAP, but I believe he was at ICAP until he 11 Q. You know Bruce Kim, yes? 11 started working for XP. 12 A. I do. 12 Q. And Mr. Kim was working for 13 Q. Do you remember what year you met 13 interdealer brokers of the type that we were 14 him? 14 just speaking of, yes? These are 15 A. I think it was right before I 15 interdealer brokers, Prebon, ICAP and XP, at 16 actually went to Asia, so I want to say it 16 least in the capacity that he was working 17 was 1997. 17 for them? 18 Q. And what type of work was Bruce 18 A. I assume, yes, that's the capacity. 19 doing at the time, in 1997? 19 Q. Did Bruce ever broke for you over 20 A. I believe, at the time, he was 20 the course of your relationship with him? 21 working for a brokerage shop called Prebon. 21 A. Yes. 22 I don't know how long he had been working as 22 Q. Was that early in meeting him, Page 27 Page 28 1 perhaps even in 1997? 1 you. I don't know. 2 A. No. I don't know exactly the time- 2 Q. Without assigning a specific number 3 frame that I started dealing with Bruce, but 3 or percentage, is it fair to say that it was 4 it did start while I was still working in 4 a significant number of trades? 5 Asia. Bruce was always working as a broker 5 A. Yes, it definitely would have been 6 in New York, but I do remember meeting him 6 significant. 7 in 1997, when I was working in my capacity 7 Q. Just more generally, how many 8 as a trader for Merrill Lynch in Asia, there 8 different banks trade Asian foreign 9 were times where I would need to transact or 9 currencies in New York? 10 trade during New York hours, so that's how 10 A. I don't know. I couldn't tell 11 it started. That's kind-of the early period 11 you -- I mean, definitely more than ten. 12 when I started dealing through Bruce, so 12 Q. Would 25 seem about right to you? 13 basically dealing in New York hours because 13 A. Possibly. 14 he was a New York broker. Again, I don't 14 Q. What about London, would you know? 15 remember when that started. It would have 15 A. Probably similar, I would guess. 16 been in the late '90s, I guess. 16 I'm not an authority on it so... 17 Q. Can you describe, using a term 17 Q. Just generally speaking, from a 18 that's more familiar to you, what percentage 18 trader's perspective, what makes for a good 19 of trades you used Bruce as your broker as 19 broker? 20 opposed to other brokers over the course of 20 A. I mean, it's a very qualitative 21 your relationship? 21 question, but I can only speak from personal 22 A. I don't recall. I couldn't tell 22 preference, personal experience -- 7 (Pages 25 to 28) www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2023 202-232-0646 FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 05/31/2024 11:51 PM INDEX NO. 651341/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 222 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 05/31/2024 11/2/2023 Bruce Kim v. XP Securities, LLC et al. Robert Kim Page 29 Page 30 1 Q. That's what I'm asking. 1 A. So, he was definitely one of the 2 A. -- an understanding of a trader's 2 most competent, if not the most competent 3 particular trading style. Also, an 3 broker that I dealt with. So, again, like, 4 understanding of that trader's institution 4 I couldn't tell you what percentage of 5 and kind-of risk profile or the degree to 5 trades I did with him, but to use that 6 which that trader might need to transact, 6 analogy, like, he knew how I like my coffee, 7 like some banks may have a much larger 7 so I could trust that if I expressed an 8 franchise than others. And then, also, a 8 interest to him of what I was looking to do 9 particular trader's trading style is also 9 in the market, that he would take due care 10 very important. For me, personally, what I 10 in handling that interest. 11 valued in the brokers that I would tend to 11 Q. Generally speaking, in broking, 12 use more than others is the ability to 12 from a creator's perspective, over the 13 retain or to take into consideration where I 13 course of your career, what comment can you 14 might have had an interest to transact 14 provide on broker opacity versus broker 15 something before, and then, when the 15 transparency? 16 opposite interest comes into the market, to 16 A. Sorry, can you repeat? 17 bring that to me. I mean, good customer 17 Q. Broker opacity versus transparency. 18 service, I guess, is the best way to put it. 18 A. But what are you asking? 19 But you would do that with anything, like 19 Q. With respect to prices. Does that 20 somebody who knows how you like your coffee. 20 question make sense to you at all -- not 21 Q. What did you think of Bruce as a 21 exactly? 22 broker? 22 A. Maybe you can rephrase. Page 31 Page 32 1 Q. Sure. Are you familiar with the 1 Maybe I can ask a more pointed question 2 phenomenon of brokers having a particular 2 regarding Bruce. Did you find his style of 3 loyalty to a particular trader and keeping 3 broking to be transparent with you? 4 or reserving certain prices for certain 4 A. To be transparent with me? 5 traders? 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. Well, I'm not a broker, I never 6 A. Yes. 7 worked as a broker. 7 Q. Did you maintain or develop a 8 Q. Have you perceived that from your 8 personal relationship with Bruce over the 9 trading perspective that different brokers 9 course of your years knowing him, as well? 10 appear to hold more choice prices for 10 A. I mean, I worked with him. He was 11 preferred trader clients as opposed to 11 my broker for 20 years, so, yeah, I mean, I 12 others? 12 got to know him more than just a broker or a 13 MR. KILLEEN: Objection to form. 13 bank relationship. But you would have that 14 You can go ahead to the extent you 14 with anybody that you worked with for 15 understand. 15 20 years. 16 A. Again, like, not having worked as a 16 Q. That's normal in the business, 17 broker, I can't say definitively that that 17 right? 18 happened. But would I be surprised if I was 18 A. Oh, yeah, that's very common. 19 told that that happens? No, I wouldn't be 19 Q. Can you comment on Bruce's to bring 20 surprised. I don't know if that answers 20 internal liquidity from JP Morgan Seoul and 21 your question. 21 Singapore to New York and arranging internal 22 Q. That's good enough for the moment. 22 broking between JP Morgan in Asia and JP 8 (Pages 29 to 32) www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2023 202-232-0646 FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 05/31/2024 11:51 PM INDEX NO. 651341/2020 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 222 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 05/31/2024 11/2/2023 Bruce Kim v. XP Securities, LLC et al. Robert Kim Page 33 Page 34 1 Morgan in New York when you were at JP 1 at XP, correct? 2 Morgan? 2 A. Sorry? 3 MR. KILLEEN: Objection to form. 3 Q. "Many years ago," meaning the 4 Q. Are you familiar with this? 4 period of time between 2018 and 2020. 5 A. No. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Let me see if I can come back and 6 Q. So let's use the term HUBL, and can 7 ask that question in a slightly different 7 you just explain for the record what your 8 way. 8 understanding of HUBL was? 9 Do you recall having any 9 A. Well, I can describe what I had 10 conversations with Bruce about Magic Box or 10 expressed to Bruce as far as what I would 11 HUBL? 11 like to see in a platform. If the idea for 12 A. I mean, yeah, over the course of 12 him was what he was going to create in HUBL, 13 his time at XP, in our discussions around 13 then I guess there might be some 14 what I would like to see in a platform, yes. 14 similarities between that. 15 Q. And is it your understanding that 15 Q. I'm interesting in hearing that. 16 they're one and the same, Magic Box and 16 A. So, what I had wanted to see was a 17 HUBL? 17 product where -- so, first of all, just 18 A. I believe so, but this is many 18 because JP Morgan is a very large 19 years ago at this point, so I don't recall 19 institution with a very large franchise, 20 the exact specifics. 20 what was important for us is being able to 21 Q. And "many years ago," the period of 21 transact scale, so that's a very important 22 time between 2018 and 2020, when Bruce was 22 part of our business, is the ability to Page 35 Page 36 1 hedge large risk, and one of the things that 1 ability to market make and to be able to 2 I thought was lacking in the market was the 2 track offsetting risk to mitigate our own 3 ability to transact swaps and to hedge 3 risk in a scalable way. I don't know 4 forward risk in a very dynamic way, in a 4 whether that was his idea for HUBL, I don't 5 live way; so being able to have a techno- 5 know what his business plans were for that. 6 logical way to do that, because, at the 6 Q. Did you have any understanding that 7 time, most of the interbank brokers were 7 Bruce's concept of HUBL what he was trying 8 building screens, but there was not an 8 to bring to market at XP was a matching 9 ability to trade swaps in a dynamic way, 9 algorithm for odd-date bespoke swaps 10 which, for us, is something that is very 10 contracts? 11 important. Obviously, as a market maker, 11 A. Yes, I recall that being one of the 12 it's where you may be warehousing a lot of 12 conversations that we were having about 13 risk, you don't necessarily want to