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· · ·DISTRICT COURT, CITY AND COUNTY OF
· · ·DENVER, COLORADO
· · ·1437 Bannock Street
· · ·Denver, CO 80203
·
· · ·Case Number 2023CV032577, Division/Courtroom 209
· · ·_______________________________________________________
· · · · · · CERTIFIED STENOGRAPHER'S TRIAL TRANSCRIPT
· · · · · · · · · ·TRIAL DAY 3: November 1, 2023
· · ·_______________________________________________________
·
· · ·NORMA ANDERSON, MICHELLE PRIOLA,
· · ·CLAUDINE CMARADA, KRISTA KAFER,
· · ·KATHI WRIGHT, and CHRISTOPHER
· · ·CASTILIAN,
· · · · · · · Petitioners,
· · ·v.
· · ·JENA GRISWOLD, in her official capacity as
· · ·Colorado Secretary of State, and
· · ·DONALD J. TRUMP,
· · · · · · · Respondents,
· · ·and
· · ·COLORADO REPUBLICAN STATE CENTRAL
· · ·COMMITTEE, and DONALD J. TRUMP,
·
· · · · · · · Intervenors.
· · ·_______________________________________________________
· · · · · · · · · The trial in the above-entitled matter,
· · ·commenced on Wednesday, November 1, 2023, at 8:20 a.m.,
· · ·before the HONORABLE SARAH B. WALLACE, Judge of the
· · ·District Court.
·
· · · · · · · · · This transcript is a complete transcription
· · ·of the proceedings that were had in the above-entitled
· · ·matter on the aforesaid date.
·
· · · · · · · · · Reported by:· K. Michelle Dittmer, RPR
·
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·1· · · · · · · · · · ·A P P E A R A N C E S
·2
· · · · · · · For the Petitioners:
·3
· · · · · · · · · · · · ERIC OLSON, ESQ.
·4· · · · · · · · · · · SEAN GRIMSLEY, ESQ.
· · · · · · · · · · · · JASON MURRAY, ESQ.
·5· · · · · · · · · · · Olson Grimsley Kawanabe
· · · · · · · · · · · · · Hinchcliff & Murray LLC
·6· · · · · · · · · · · 700 17th Street, Suite 1600
· · · · · · · · · · · · Denver, Colorado 80202
·7· · · · · · · · · · · (303)535-9151
· · · · · · · · · · · · eolson@olsongrimsley.com
·8· · · · · · · · · · · sgrimsley@olsongrimsley.com
· · · · · · · · · · · · jmurray@olsongrimsley.com
·9
· · · · · · · · · · · · MARTHA TIERNEY, ESQ.
10· · · · · · · · · · · Tierney Lawrence Stiles LLC
· · · · · · · · · · · · 225 East 16th Avenue, Suite 350
11· · · · · · · · · · · Denver, Colorado 80203
· · · · · · · · · · · · (303)356-4870
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13· · · · · · · · · · · MARIO NICOLAIS, ESQ.
· · · · · · · · · · · · KBN Law, LLC
14· · · · · · · · · · · 7830 West Alameda Avenue
· · · · · · · · · · · · Suite 103-301
15· · · · · · · · · · · Lakewood, Colorado 80226
16· · · · · · · · · · · NIKHEL SUS, ESQ.
· · · · · · · · · · · · Citizens for Responsibility and
17· · · · · · · · · · · · Ethics in Washington
· · · · · · · · · · · · 1331 F Street NW, Suite 900
18· · · · · · · · · · · Washington, DC 20004
· · · · · · · · · · · · (202)408-5565
19· · · · · · · · · · · nsus@citizensforethics.org
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·1· · · · · · · · A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd)
·2· · · · · · For the Respondents/Intervenor Donald J. Trump:
·3· · · · · · · · · · · SCOTT GESSLER, ESQ.
· · · · · · · · · · · · GEOFF BLUE, ESQ.
·4· · · · · · · · · · · JUSTIN NORTH, ESQ.
· · · · · · · · · · · · Gessler Blue LLC
·5· · · · · · · · · · · 7350 East Progress Place, Suite 100
· · · · · · · · · · · · Greenwood Village, Colorado 80111
·6· · · · · · · · · · · (720)647-5320
· · · · · · · · · · · · sgessler@gesslerblue.com
·7· · · · · · · · · · · gblue@gesslerblue.com
· · · · · · · · · · · · jnorth@gesslerblue.com
·8
· · · · · · · · · · · · JONATHAN M. SHAW, ESQ.
·9· · · · · · · · · · · Dhillon Law Group, Inc.
· · · · · · · · · · · · 2121 Eisenhower Avenue, Suite 608
10· · · · · · · · · · · Alexandria, Virginia 22314
· · · · · · · · · · · · (415)520-6593
11· · · · · · · · · · · jshaw@dhillonlaw.com
12· · · · · · · · · · · CHRIS HALBOHN, ESQ.
· · · · · · · · · · · · MARK P. MEUSER, ESQ.
13· · · · · · · · · · · Dhillon Law Group, Inc.
· · · · · · · · · · · · 177 Post Street, Suite 700
14· · · · · · · · · · · San Francisco, California 94108
· · · · · · · · · · · · (415)433-1700
15· · · · · · · · · · · chalbohn@dhillonlaw.com
· · · · · · · · · · · · mmeuser@dhillonlaw.com
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· · · · · · · · · · · · JACOB WILLIAM ROTH, ESQ.
17· · · · · · · · · · · Dhillon Law Group, Inc.
· · · · · · · · · · · · 1601 Forum Place, Suite 403
18· · · · · · · · · · · West Palm Beach, Florida 33401
· · · · · · · · · · · · (415)682-6827
19· · · · · · · · · · · jroth@dhillonlaw.com
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·1· · · · · · · · A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd)
·2
·3· · · · · · For the Respondent Jena Griswold:
·4· · · · · · · · · · · MICHAEL KOTLARCZYK, ESQ.
· · · · · · · · · · · · JENNIFER SULLIVAN, ESQ.
·5· · · · · · · · · · · CHRISTOPHER BEALL, ESQ.
· · · · · · · · · · · · Colorado Department of Law
·6· · · · · · · · · · · State Services Section
· · · · · · · · · · · · Public Officials Unit
·7· · · · · · · · · · · 1300 Broadway, 6th Floor
· · · · · · · · · · · · Denver, Colorado 80203
·8· · · · · · · · · · · (720)508-6349
· · · · · · · · · · · · mike.kotlarczyk@coag.gov
·9· · · · · · · · · · · jennifer.sullivan@coag.gov
· · · · · · · · · · · · christopher.beall@coag.gov
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· · · · · · · For the Intervenor Colorado Republican
11· · · · · · State Central Committee:
12· · · · · · · · · · · JANE RASKIN, ESQ.
· · · · · · · · · · · · Raskin & Raskin
13· · · · · · · · · · · 2525 Ponce de Leon Boulevard
· · · · · · · · · · · · Suite 300
14· · · · · · · · · · · Coral Gables, Florida 33134
· · · · · · · · · · · · (305)444-3400
15· · · · · · · · · · · jraskin@raskinlaw.com
16· · · · · · · · · · · NATHAN MOELKER, ESQ.
· · · · · · · · · · · · BENJAMIN P. SISNEY, ESQ.
17· · · · · · · · · · · American Center for Law and Justice
· · · · · · · · · · · · P.O. Box 90555
18· · · · · · · · · · · Washington, DC 20090-05551
· · · · · · · · · · · · (800)342-2255
19· · · · · · · · · · · nmoelker@aclj.org
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·1· · · · · · · · A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd)
·2
·3· · · · · · For the Intervenor Colorado Republican
· · · · · · · State Central Committee:
·4
· · · · · · · MICHAEL W. MELITO, ESQ.
·5· · · · · · Law Office of Melito Law LLC
· · · · · · · 138 West 5th Avenue
·6· · · · · · Denver, Colorado 80204
· · · · · · · (303)813-1200
·7· · · · · · melito@melitolaw.com
·8
· · · · · · · ROBERT KITSMILLER, ESQ.
·9· · · · · · Podoll & Podoll, P.C.
· · · · · · · 5619 DTC Parkway, Suite 1100
10· · · · · · Greenwood Village, Colorado 80111
· · · · · · · (303)861-4000
11· · · · · · bob@podoll.net
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·1
·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·I N D E X
·3· ·WITNESSES:· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
·4· ·For the Petitioners:
·5· · · · GERARD MAGLIOCCA
·6· · · · · · ·Direct Examination by Mr. Murray· · · · · · ·10
· · · · · · · ·Cross-Examination by Mr. Gessler· · · · · · ·76
·7· · · · · · ·Redirect Examination by Mr. Murray· · · · · ·86
·8· · · · HILARY RUDY
·9· · · · · · ·Direct Examination by Ms. Tierney· · · · · · 88
· · · · · · · ·Cross-Examination by Mr. Gessler· · · · · · 125
10· · · · · · ·Cross-Examination by Ms. Raskin· · · · · · ·143
· · · · · · · ·Examination by Mr. Kotlarczyk· · · · · · · ·149
11· · · · · · ·Recross-Examination by Mr. Gessler· · · · · 154
· · · · · · · ·Redirect Examination by Ms. Tierney· · · · ·155
12· · · · · · ·Examination by The Court· · · · · · · · · · 157
· · · · · · · ·Further Examination by Mr. Gessler· · · · · 158
13
14· ·Move for Directed Verdict· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·162
15
16· ·For the Respondent/Intervenor Donald Trump:
17· · · · KASHYAP PATEL
18· · · · · · ·Direct Examination by Mr. Shaw· · · · · · ·200
· · · · · · · ·Cross-Examination by Mr. Grimsley· · · · · 231
19· · · · · · ·Redirect Examination by Mr. Shaw· · · · · ·264
20· · · · KATRINA PIERSON
21· · · · · · ·Direct Examination by Mr. Shaw· · · · · · ·268
· · · · · · · ·Cross-Examination by Mr. Olson· · · · · · ·300
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·1· ·EXHIBITS:· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · RECEIVED
·2· · · · 107· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·105
·3· · · · 158· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·124
·4· · · · 263· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·319
·5· · · · 265· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·319
·6· · · ·1027· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·206
·7· · · ·1028· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·224
·8
·9
10· ·**STENOGRAPHER'S NOTE:· All quotations from exhibits are
· · ·reflected in the manner in which they were read into the
11· ·record and do not necessarily indicate an exact quote
· · ·from the document.
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·1· ·MORNING SESSION, WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2023
·2· · · · · · · · · WHEREUPON, the court convened at
·3· ·8:20 a.m., and the following proceedings were had:
·4· · · · · · · · · ·*· · ·*· · ·*· · ·*· · ·*
·5· · · · · · · · · THE COURT:· Good morning.· Everyone may be
·6· ·seated.
·7· · · · · · · · · Do we need to talk about any preliminary
·8· ·matters, or can we get to the next witness?
·9· · · · · · · · · MR. OLSON:· I think we can get to the next
10· ·witness, Your Honor.
11· · · · · · · · · MR. GESSLER:· Nothing from us, Your Honor.
12· · · · · · · · · MS. RASKIN:· I would just like to renew
13· ·our motion to exclude testimony from yesterday.· I would
14· ·like to renew our motion to exclude the testimony of
15· ·Mr. Magliocca, 702.
16· · · · · · · · · THE COURT:· And that -- that motion is
17· ·denied on the basis of my previous written ruling.
18· · · · · · · · · Anything from the Secretary?
19· · · · · · · · · MR. KOTLARCZYK:· No preliminary matters
20· ·for the Secretary, Your Honor.
21· · · · · · · · · THE COURT:· Great.· Let's call your next
22· ·witness.
23· · · · · · · · · MR. MURRAY:· Your Honor, would you like
24· ·entries of appearance first?
25· · · · · · · · · THE COURT:· Yes.· Thank you.
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·1· · · · · · · · · MR. MURRAY:· For petitioners,
·2· ·Jason Murray, Eric Olson, and Sean Grimsley,
·3· ·Martha Tierney, Mario Nicolais, and Nikhel Sus.
·4· · · · · · · · · THE COURT:· Thank you.
·5· · · · · · · · · MR. GESSLER:· Your Honor, on behalf of
·6· ·President Trump, I have to look around to see who's here
·7· ·today.· Myself, Scott Gessler, Jacob Roth.· Next to me,
·8· ·Jonathan Shaw and Chris Halbohn.
·9· · · · · · · · · MS. RASKIN:· Jane Raskin, Mike Melito,
10· ·Nathan Moelker and Robert Kitsmiller on behalf of the
11· ·Republican State Central Committee.
12· · · · · · · · · MR. KOTLARCZYK:· And good morning,
13· ·Your Honor.· Michael Kotlarczyk on behalf of the
14· ·Secretary of State, joined with Jennifer Sullivan from
15· ·the Attorney General's Office and Deputy Secretary of
16· ·State, Christopher Beall.
17· · · · · · · · · THE COURT:· Great.· Thank you.
18· · · · · · · · · And thank you, Mr. Murray.
19· · · · · · · · · MR. MURRAY:· Of course.
20· · · · · · · · · Petitioners call Professor Gerard
21· ·Magliocca to the stand.
22· · · · · · · · · THE COURT:· Professor Magliocca.
23· · · · · · · · · · · ·GERARD MAGLIOCCA,
24· ·having been first duly sworn, was examined and
25· ·testified as follows:
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·1· · · · · · · · · · · DIRECT EXAMINATION
·2· ·BY MR. MURRAY:
·3· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Good morning, Professor.· Could you
·4· ·introduce yourself, please.
·5· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· I'm Gerard Magliocca.
·6· · · · · · ·Q.· ·How do you spell your last name?
·7· · · · · · ·A.· ·M-a-g-l-i-o-c-c-a.
·8· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Where do you work?
·9· · · · · · ·A.· ·I teach at the Indiana University,
10· ·Robert H. McKinney School of Law.
11· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, you're here as an expert today.· What
12· ·topics are you here to testify about?
13· · · · · · ·A.· ·I am here to give expert testimony on the
14· ·history of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment.
15· · · · · · ·Q.· ·How long have you been at Indiana
16· ·University McKinney School of Law?
17· · · · · · ·A.· ·22 years.
18· · · · · · ·Q.· ·And in those 22 years, has your
19· ·scholarship had any particular focus?
20· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· I focus mainly on constitutional
21· ·history.
22· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Are you a member of any professional
23· ·organizations related to constitutional history?
24· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· I'm a member of the Supreme Court
25· ·Historical Society, the American Society of Legal
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·1· ·Historians, and I'm on the board of editors of the
·2· ·Journal of American Constitutional History.
·3· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Can you give us a general overview of what
·4· ·kinds of published works you have in the area of
·5· ·constitutional history?
·6· · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, I've written five books and
·7· ·something in the neighborhood of 20 law review articles
·8· ·on various constitutional history subjects.
·9· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Have you written any books specifically
10· ·about the Fourteenth Amendment or its history?
11· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· About ten years ago, I wrote a
12· ·biography of Congressman John Bingham, who was the main
13· ·drafter of Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment as a
14· ·member of the Joint Committee on Reconstruction.
15· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Have you written any academic articles or
16· ·journals related to the history of the Fourteenth
17· ·Amendment?
18· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· I have four articles that cover
19· ·different aspects of the history of Section 1, Section 2,
20· ·and Section 3 of the Amendment.
21· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Do you have any other articles about
22· ·19th century history?
23· · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, yes, several.· I mean, some of them
24· ·cover the period of Jacksonian democracy.· Some cover the
25· ·period in the late 19th century, sort of around the
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·1· ·Populist period or the Gilded Age, and others of my -- my
·2· ·books also focus on different aspects of those subjects.
·3· · · · · · ·Q.· ·You mention that you've written on the
·4· ·subject of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment.· Tell
·5· ·us about that.
·6· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· So in 2020, I drafted a paper on
·7· ·Section 3, and that paper was posted to the Social
·8· ·Science Research Network, which is the place where
·9· ·professors post their draft papers to share with the
10· ·public, in December of 2020.
11· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Was that later published?
12· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· That was published in 2021 in
13· ·Constitutional Commentary, which is a peer-reviewed
14· ·journal run out of the University of Minnesota.
15· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Before you posted your article about
16· ·Section 3 on SSRN in December of 2020, give us a sense of
17· ·the state of the existing scholarship on Section 3 of the
18· ·Fourteenth Amendment.
19· · · · · · ·A.· ·There really wasn't any.
20· · · · · · ·Q.· ·How, if at all, has that changed since
21· ·then?
22· · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, it's changed quite a bit, especially
23· ·in the last few months.
24· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Have you written any other articles about
25· ·Section 3?
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·1· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· I have a draft paper that is going
·2· ·to be coming out in the Journal of Constitutional History
·3· ·that's -- or Constitutional Law that is kind of run out
·4· ·of the University of Pennsylvania.· That was given as a
·5· ·talk at a symposium in January on the Fourteenth
·6· ·Amendment.
·7· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Can you tell us whether any of your work
·8· ·on Section 3 has ever been cited by courts?
·9· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· My original article was cited by the
10· ·United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, as
11· ·well as a Federal District Court in Georgia.
12· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Has your work on Section 3 ever been cited
13· ·by any government agencies?
14· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· The Congressional Research Service
15· ·cited the article in an analysis of Section 3 that they
16· ·did.
17· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Have you ever given expert testimony on
18· ·Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment?
19· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I have.· I gave expert testimony on
20· ·the history of the Amendment in an administrative
21· ·proceeding in Georgia that was addressing the eligibility
22· ·of Representative Taylor Greene.
23· · · · · · ·Q.· ·I want to pull up Petitioners'
24· ·Exhibit 162.
25· · · · · · · · · What is this?
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·1· · · · · · ·A.· ·This is my CV.
·2· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Is it current?
·3· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
·4· · · · · · ·Q.· ·I don't want to talk about every entry
·5· ·here, but just briefly, can you summarize your
·6· ·educational background for us.
·7· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· I received my undergraduate degree
·8· ·from Stanford and my law degree from Yale.
·9· · · · · · ·Q.· ·If you go to the second page, just tell us
10· ·briefly which of the books on your CV relate to
11· ·19th century history or constitutional history.
12· · · · · · ·A.· ·All five of the ones that have been
13· ·published.
14· · · · · · ·Q.· ·And is this entry here the biography you
15· ·were referring to about John Bingham?
16· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, it is.
17· · · · · · ·Q.· ·And if we go down to "Book Chapters, Law
18· ·Review, Articles and Essays," we see a few entries
19· ·related to Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment.
20· · · · · · · · · Were those the forthcoming article and the
21· ·previously published article --
22· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
23· · · · · · ·Q.· ·-- that you mentioned earlier?
24· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
25· · · · · · ·Q.· ·And briefly, on page 4, can you just
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·1· ·highlight for us on this page of your CV some of the
·2· ·articles here that relate to 19th century history or
·3· ·the history of the Fourteenth Amendment.
·4· · · · · · ·A.· ·Sure.· The one at the top is about
·5· ·Section 2 of the Fourteenth Amendment.
·6· · · · · · · · · Then also the one, let's see, going down a
·7· ·little bit -- okay, "Why did the Incorporation of the
·8· ·Bill of Rights Fail in the Late 19th Century" is a
·9· ·19th century historical piece.
10· · · · · · · · · And then also the one that's entitled
11· ·"Indians and Invaders:· The Citizenship Clause and
12· ·Illegal Aliens" focuses on Section 1 of the Amendment, on
13· ·the citizenship clause of Section 1.
14· · · · · · · · · And the paper on the legal tender cases,
15· ·"A New Approach to Congressional Power, Revisiting the
16· ·Legal Tender Cases" is about the Supreme Court decisions
17· ·on the constitutionality of paper money that were
18· ·rendered in the 1860s and 18- -- well, up into the 1880s.
19· · · · · · · · · "Constitutional False Positives in the
20· ·Populist Moment" was about constitutional development in
21· ·the late 19th century, basically focusing on the 1890s.
22· · · · · · · · · "Cherokee Removal and the Fourteenth
23· ·Amendment" was talking about the Trail of Tears and then
24· ·how that had an influence on some of the thinking behind
25· ·Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment.
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·1· · · · · · ·Q.· ·If we go to the next page of your CV, you
·2· ·have a list of recent professional activities.
·3· · · · · · · · · Do any of those relate to the history of
·4· ·the Fourteenth Amendment?
·5· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· So the podcast on Section 4, which I
·6· ·haven't written a whole article about that, but I did
·7· ·write about that in one -- a piece of one article.· I did
·8· ·a podcast with Eric Foner, who is basically America's
·9· ·leading historian on Reconstruction, earlier this year.
10· · · · · · · · · And then the symposium piece is the one I
11· ·mentioned earlier.· That's my draft paper about another
12· ·aspect of Section 3.
13· · · · · · · · · And then the -- there was a presentation
14· ·about the Section 3 article last fall.· And then I gave a
15· ·talk last year about my biography of Bushrod Washington
16· ·at John Marshall's house, which was rather fun.
17· · · · · · ·Q.· ·And on the last page, I'm not going to
18· ·highlight all of these, but did some of these also relate
19· ·to Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment?
20· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· I did a podcast with Professor Dan
21· ·Hemel in January of 2021 about Section 3.· That was, of
22· ·course, in the immediate aftermath of January 6, 2021.
23· · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what about this entry about John
24· ·Bingham with Kurt Lash?
25· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah.· So that was a podcast I did with
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·1· ·Professor Lash for the National Constitution Center about
·2· ·John Bingham's career that was part of a series of events
·3· ·that commemorated the 150th anniversary of the
·4· ·ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment in 2018.
·5· · · · · · ·Q.· ·When you're doing your historical
·6· ·scholarship on the Fourteenth Amendment, what kinds of
·7· ·sources do you consider?
·8· · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, I mean, I'm trying to look at
·9· ·primary sources because that's the best way to try to get
10· ·at the truth of what happened.· So I'm always most
11· ·interested in looking at those.
12· · · · · · ·Q.· ·What are the -- what are the types of
13· ·primary sources that you would look at in your
14· ·scholarship?
15· · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, they kind of run the gamut, but you
16· ·could look at congressional debates and reports.· You can
17· ·look at presidential documents.· You can look at judicial
18· ·cases.
19· · · · · · · · · You can look at contemporary newspapers,
20· ·contemporary books, basically any kind of source that
21· ·would be a sort of firsthand account of what occurred in
22· ·a particular time period.
23· · · · · · ·Q.· ·I'm pulling up Petitioners' Exhibit 144.
24· ·What is this exhibit?
25· · · · · · ·A.· ·This is an index of the materials that I
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·1· ·considered for my expert report.
·2· · · · · · ·Q.· ·And if we walk through this index, we see
·3· ·some cases.· There's some citations to law review
·4· ·articles, some statutes, citations to Congressional
·5· ·Record, et cetera.
·6· · · · · · · · · Are those the sorts of materials that you
·7· ·would review in your historical scholarship outside the
·8· ·courtroom?
·9· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, they are.
10· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Tell us a bit about the historical
11· ·methodology that you used in forming your opinions in
12· ·this case.
13· · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, I mean, the first thing you want to
14· ·do is make sure that the sources you're looking at are
15· ·true and accurate.· I mean, usually that's pretty
16· ·straightforward because they are official government
17· ·records of one sort or another.
18· · · · · · · · · You know, for example, there was an
19· ·official compilation of presidential documents assembled
20· ·at the end of the 19th century, and I have a set in my
21· ·office that I found in an antique shop one time.· And so
22· ·I refer to that just to make sure, if I see a document
23· ·online, that I can look it up to make sure it's a real
24· ·document and not -- there's not some error in
25· ·transcription or something.
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·1· · · · · · · · · For newspapers, it's a little more
·2· ·challenging.· I mean, there are some sort of trustworthy
·3· ·databases of old newspapers.· One's run by the Library of
·4· ·Congress.
·5· · · · · · · · · You can also cross-check newspapers
·6· ·because typically an article would be reprinted more than
·7· ·once, or at least the sort of substance of the article
·8· ·would be reprinted in another newspaper.· So you can try
·9· ·to make sure that whatever you're looking at is, in fact,
10· ·an accurate rendition of whatever the article is
11· ·discussing.
12· · · · · · ·Q.· ·As a historian, what do you do if there is
13· ·some kind of ambiguity or mismatch among different
14· ·historical sources?
15· · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, look, the first thing you're looking
16· ·at is kind of what is the context of the source.
17· · · · · · · · · Now, for example, in the case of the
18· ·Fourteenth Amendment, you would be more interested in
19· ·what supporters of the Amendment had to say than you
20· ·would be about what an opponent of the Amendment would
21· ·have said, in the same way that if you were looking at a
22· ·judicial opinion, you'd be more interested in what the
23· ·Court said rather than what any dissenting opinions said
24· ·to understand what the opinion was about.
25· · · · · · · · · Also, you would look at who the speaker or
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·1· ·author was.· Now, in -- some people are just more
·2· ·authoritative than others in their exposition of the
·3· ·Fourteenth Amendment.· And, you know, at the top of the
·4· ·list or near the top would be John Bingham, I mean, not
·5· ·just because I wrote a book about him, but because he was
·6· ·centrally involved in all elements of the Fourteenth
·7· ·Amendment's proposal and ratification and implementation.
·8· ·And this has been recognized by the Supreme Court many
·9· ·times and by scholars many times.
10· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Can you tell us whether or not the
11· ·historical methodology that you've just laid out was the
12· ·method that you used in forming and presenting your
13· ·opinions in this case?
14· · · · · · ·A.· ·It was.
15· · · · · · · · · MR. MURRAY:· At this time, petitioners
16· ·move to admit Professor Magliocca as an expert in the
17· ·history of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment.
18· · · · · · · · · MR. GESSLER:· Your Honor, we have no
19· ·objection to Professor Magliocca's expertise.
20· · · · · · · · · Obviously we renew and endorse the
21· ·702 motion, Your Honor.
22· · · · · · · · · THE COURT:· Professor Magliocca will be
23· ·admitted as an expert in the history of Section 3 of
24· ·14 -- of the Fourteenth Amendment.
25· · · · · · · · · MR. MURRAY:· Thank you, Your Honor.
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·1· · · · · · ·Q.· (By Mr. Murray)· Let's start by setting the
·2· ·stage for the adoption of Section 3.
·3· · · · · · · · · What does the historical record tell us
·4· ·about why Section 3 was put into the Fourteenth Amendment
·5· ·in the first place?
·6· · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, the main thing that prompted
·7· ·Section 3 was that they wanted to keep officials who had
·8· ·left to join the Confederacy from returning to office
·9· ·unless they showed that they deserved a second chance to
10· ·return to office.
11· · · · · · · · · So basically there were elections held
12· ·throughout the South in 1865 after the war ended, and
13· ·many of the same people who had been in office before the
14· ·war and had left to join the Confederacy were returned to
15· ·office.· And some of them showed up to the new Congress
16· ·and essentially said, "Okay, we're here to take our seats
17· ·now," as if nothing had happened.
18· · · · · · · · · And Congressional Republicans were very
19· ·upset at this idea.· They felt that this was wrong.· And
20· ·so there was a proposal by the Joint Committee on
21· ·Reconstruction to do something to exclude people like
22· ·that from positions of authority unless they demonstrated
23· ·some repentance or, you know, deserved forgiveness.
24· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Does the historical record tell us
25· ·anything about whether that was intended as punishment
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·1· ·for insurrectionists?
·2· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· I mean, it was not intended as
·3· ·punishment.· There was -- a number of senators discussed
·4· ·the fact that this was simply adding another
·5· ·qualification to office because of the events that had
·6· ·occurred.
·7· · · · · · ·Q.· ·What does the historical record tell us
·8· ·about the role that the oath plays in Section 3?
·9· · · · · · ·A.· ·So the oath plays a central role, not just
10· ·in the text, but in the rationale for Section 3 in two
11· ·respects.
12· · · · · · · · · I mean, the first is it was a way of
13· ·limiting the scope of the provision.· They didn't want to
14· ·disqualify all former Confederates from office or from
15· ·serving.· They wanted to focus that on the people they
16· ·thought were most responsible for Secession and the Civil
17· ·War, and the oath was a way to do that.
18· · · · · · · · · Now, secondly, senators said if you had
19· ·sworn an oath to support the Constitution and you had
20· ·broken it by engaging in insurrection and joining the
21· ·Confederacy, it was a kind of moral perjury -- that was
22· ·the term that some people used -- that you had engaged in
23· ·and you were just untrustworthy to hold office again
24· ·unless you demonstrated some reason why you should be
25· ·allowed a second chance.
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·1· · · · · · ·Q.· ·What, if anything, does the historical
·2· ·record tell us about whether Section 3 was limited to the
·3· ·events of the Civil War or not?
·4· · · · · · ·A.· ·It was not limited to the events of the
·5· ·Civil War, and we know that because, first, the language
·6· ·was general.· It just referred to insurrection or
·7· ·rebellion, and secondly, there were senators in the
·8· ·debate that made pointedly clear that they thought it
·9· ·also should apply to any future insurrection that might
10· ·occur.
11· · · · · · ·Q.· ·When did the Fourteenth Amendment get
12· ·ratified?
13· · · · · · ·A.· ·1868.
14· · · · · · ·Q.· ·In the years after its ratification, walk
15· ·us through some of the ways that Section 3 got enforced
16· ·to exclude from office those who had been engaged in
17· ·insurrection or rebellion in violation of their oath.
18· · · · · · ·A.· ·Okay.· So this happened in different
19· ·forms.· In some states that were under martial law, the
20· ·Union Army did the enforcing.
21· · · · · · · · · In southern states that were no longer
22· ·under martial law, state officials and state courts did
23· ·the enforcing.
24· · · · · · · · · Individual Houses of Congress also
25· ·sometimes did the enforcing if someone was a member elect
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FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 · · ·DISTRICT COURT, CITY AND COUNTY OF · · ·DENVER, COLORADO · · ·1437 Bannock Street · · ·Denver, CO 80203 · · · ·Case Number 2023CV032577, Division/Courtroom 209 · · ·_______________________________________________________ · · · · · · CERTIFIED STENOGRAPHER'S TRIAL TRANSCRIPT · · · · · · · · · ·TRIAL DAY 3: November 1, 2023 · · ·_______________________________________________________ · · · ·NORMA ANDERSON, MICHELLE PRIOLA, · · ·CLAUDINE CMARADA, KRISTA KAFER, · · ·KATHI WRIGHT, and CHRISTOPHER · · ·CASTILIAN, · · · · · · · Petitioners, · · ·v. · · ·JENA GRISWOLD, in her official capacity as · · ·Colorado Secretary of State, and · · ·DONALD J. TRUMP, · · · · · · · Respondents, · · ·and · · ·COLORADO REPUBLICAN STATE CENTRAL · · ·COMMITTEE, and DONALD J. TRUMP, · · · · · · · · Intervenors. · · ·_______________________________________________________ · · · · · · · · · The trial in the above-entitled matter, · · ·commenced on Wednesday, November 1, 2023, at 8:20 a.m., · · ·before the HONORABLE SARAH B. WALLACE, Judge of the · · ·District Court. · · · · · · · · · · This transcript is a complete transcription · · ·of the proceedings that were had in the above-entitled · · ·matter on the aforesaid date. · · · · · · · · · · Reported by:· K. Michelle Dittmer, RPR · U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com · FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 ·1· · · · · · · · · · ·A P P E A R A N C E S ·2 · · · · · · · For the Petitioners: ·3 · · · · · · · · · · · · ERIC OLSON, ESQ. ·4· · · · · · · · · · · SEAN GRIMSLEY, ESQ. · · · · · · · · · · · · JASON MURRAY, ESQ. ·5· · · · · · · · · · · Olson Grimsley Kawanabe · · · · · · · · · · · · · Hinchcliff & Murray LLC ·6· · · · · · · · · · · 700 17th Street, Suite 1600 · · · · · · · · · · · · Denver, Colorado 80202 ·7· · · · · · · · · · · (303)535-9151 · · · · · · · · · · · · eolson@olsongrimsley.com ·8· · · · · · · · · · · sgrimsley@olsongrimsley.com · · · · · · · · · · · · jmurray@olsongrimsley.com ·9 · · · · · · · · · · · · MARTHA TIERNEY, ESQ. 10· · · · · · · · · · · Tierney Lawrence Stiles LLC · · · · · · · · · · · · 225 East 16th Avenue, Suite 350 11· · · · · · · · · · · Denver, Colorado 80203 · · · · · · · · · · · · (303)356-4870 12 13· · · · · · · · · · · MARIO NICOLAIS, ESQ. · · · · · · · · · · · · KBN Law, LLC 14· · · · · · · · · · · 7830 West Alameda Avenue · · · · · · · · · · · · Suite 103-301 15· · · · · · · · · · · Lakewood, Colorado 80226 16· · · · · · · · · · · NIKHEL SUS, ESQ. · · · · · · · · · · · · Citizens for Responsibility and 17· · · · · · · · · · · · Ethics in Washington · · · · · · · · · · · · 1331 F Street NW, Suite 900 18· · · · · · · · · · · Washington, DC 20004 · · · · · · · · · · · · (202)408-5565 19· · · · · · · · · · · nsus@citizensforethics.org 20 21 22 23 24 25 U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com 2 FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 ·1· · · · · · · · A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd) ·2· · · · · · For the Respondents/Intervenor Donald J. Trump: ·3· · · · · · · · · · · SCOTT GESSLER, ESQ. · · · · · · · · · · · · GEOFF BLUE, ESQ. ·4· · · · · · · · · · · JUSTIN NORTH, ESQ. · · · · · · · · · · · · Gessler Blue LLC ·5· · · · · · · · · · · 7350 East Progress Place, Suite 100 · · · · · · · · · · · · Greenwood Village, Colorado 80111 ·6· · · · · · · · · · · (720)647-5320 · · · · · · · · · · · · sgessler@gesslerblue.com ·7· · · · · · · · · · · gblue@gesslerblue.com · · · · · · · · · · · · jnorth@gesslerblue.com ·8 · · · · · · · · · · · · JONATHAN M. SHAW, ESQ. ·9· · · · · · · · · · · Dhillon Law Group, Inc. · · · · · · · · · · · · 2121 Eisenhower Avenue, Suite 608 10· · · · · · · · · · · Alexandria, Virginia 22314 · · · · · · · · · · · · (415)520-6593 11· · · · · · · · · · · jshaw@dhillonlaw.com 12· · · · · · · · · · · CHRIS HALBOHN, ESQ. · · · · · · · · · · · · MARK P. MEUSER, ESQ. 13· · · · · · · · · · · Dhillon Law Group, Inc. · · · · · · · · · · · · 177 Post Street, Suite 700 14· · · · · · · · · · · San Francisco, California 94108 · · · · · · · · · · · · (415)433-1700 15· · · · · · · · · · · chalbohn@dhillonlaw.com · · · · · · · · · · · · mmeuser@dhillonlaw.com 16 · · · · · · · · · · · · JACOB WILLIAM ROTH, ESQ. 17· · · · · · · · · · · Dhillon Law Group, Inc. · · · · · · · · · · · · 1601 Forum Place, Suite 403 18· · · · · · · · · · · West Palm Beach, Florida 33401 · · · · · · · · · · · · (415)682-6827 19· · · · · · · · · · · jroth@dhillonlaw.com 20 21 22 23 24 25 U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com 3 FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 ·1· · · · · · · · A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd) ·2 ·3· · · · · · For the Respondent Jena Griswold: ·4· · · · · · · · · · · MICHAEL KOTLARCZYK, ESQ. · · · · · · · · · · · · JENNIFER SULLIVAN, ESQ. ·5· · · · · · · · · · · CHRISTOPHER BEALL, ESQ. · · · · · · · · · · · · Colorado Department of Law ·6· · · · · · · · · · · State Services Section · · · · · · · · · · · · Public Officials Unit ·7· · · · · · · · · · · 1300 Broadway, 6th Floor · · · · · · · · · · · · Denver, Colorado 80203 ·8· · · · · · · · · · · (720)508-6349 · · · · · · · · · · · · mike.kotlarczyk@coag.gov ·9· · · · · · · · · · · jennifer.sullivan@coag.gov · · · · · · · · · · · · christopher.beall@coag.gov 10 · · · · · · · For the Intervenor Colorado Republican 11· · · · · · State Central Committee: 12· · · · · · · · · · · JANE RASKIN, ESQ. · · · · · · · · · · · · Raskin & Raskin 13· · · · · · · · · · · 2525 Ponce de Leon Boulevard · · · · · · · · · · · · Suite 300 14· · · · · · · · · · · Coral Gables, Florida 33134 · · · · · · · · · · · · (305)444-3400 15· · · · · · · · · · · jraskin@raskinlaw.com 16· · · · · · · · · · · NATHAN MOELKER, ESQ. · · · · · · · · · · · · BENJAMIN P. SISNEY, ESQ. 17· · · · · · · · · · · American Center for Law and Justice · · · · · · · · · · · · P.O. Box 90555 18· · · · · · · · · · · Washington, DC 20090-05551 · · · · · · · · · · · · (800)342-2255 19· · · · · · · · · · · nmoelker@aclj.org 20 21 22 23 24 25 U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com 4 FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 ·1· · · · · · · · A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd) ·2 ·3· · · · · · For the Intervenor Colorado Republican · · · · · · · State Central Committee: ·4 · · · · · · · MICHAEL W. MELITO, ESQ. ·5· · · · · · Law Office of Melito Law LLC · · · · · · · 138 West 5th Avenue ·6· · · · · · Denver, Colorado 80204 · · · · · · · (303)813-1200 ·7· · · · · · melito@melitolaw.com ·8 · · · · · · · ROBERT KITSMILLER, ESQ. ·9· · · · · · Podoll & Podoll, P.C. · · · · · · · 5619 DTC Parkway, Suite 1100 10· · · · · · Greenwood Village, Colorado 80111 · · · · · · · (303)861-4000 11· · · · · · bob@podoll.net 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com 5 FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 ·1 ·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·I N D E X ·3· ·WITNESSES:· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE ·4· ·For the Petitioners: ·5· · · · GERARD MAGLIOCCA ·6· · · · · · ·Direct Examination by Mr. Murray· · · · · · ·10 · · · · · · · ·Cross-Examination by Mr. Gessler· · · · · · ·76 ·7· · · · · · ·Redirect Examination by Mr. Murray· · · · · ·86 ·8· · · · HILARY RUDY ·9· · · · · · ·Direct Examination by Ms. Tierney· · · · · · 88 · · · · · · · ·Cross-Examination by Mr. Gessler· · · · · · 125 10· · · · · · ·Cross-Examination by Ms. Raskin· · · · · · ·143 · · · · · · · ·Examination by Mr. Kotlarczyk· · · · · · · ·149 11· · · · · · ·Recross-Examination by Mr. Gessler· · · · · 154 · · · · · · · ·Redirect Examination by Ms. Tierney· · · · ·155 12· · · · · · ·Examination by The Court· · · · · · · · · · 157 · · · · · · · ·Further Examination by Mr. Gessler· · · · · 158 13 14· ·Move for Directed Verdict· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·162 15 16· ·For the Respondent/Intervenor Donald Trump: 17· · · · KASHYAP PATEL 18· · · · · · ·Direct Examination by Mr. Shaw· · · · · · ·200 · · · · · · · ·Cross-Examination by Mr. Grimsley· · · · · 231 19· · · · · · ·Redirect Examination by Mr. Shaw· · · · · ·264 20· · · · KATRINA PIERSON 21· · · · · · ·Direct Examination by Mr. Shaw· · · · · · ·268 · · · · · · · ·Cross-Examination by Mr. Olson· · · · · · ·300 22 23 24 25 U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com 6 FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 ·1· ·EXHIBITS:· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · RECEIVED ·2· · · · 107· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·105 ·3· · · · 158· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·124 ·4· · · · 263· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·319 ·5· · · · 265· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·319 ·6· · · ·1027· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·206 ·7· · · ·1028· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·224 ·8 ·9 10· ·**STENOGRAPHER'S NOTE:· All quotations from exhibits are · · ·reflected in the manner in which they were read into the 11· ·record and do not necessarily indicate an exact quote · · ·from the document. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com 7 YVer1f FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 ·1· ·MORNING SESSION, WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 2023 ·2· · · · · · · · · WHEREUPON, the court convened at ·3· ·8:20 a.m., and the following proceedings were had: ·4· · · · · · · · · ·*· · ·*· · ·*· · ·*· · ·* ·5· · · · · · · · · THE COURT:· Good morning.· Everyone may be ·6· ·seated. ·7· · · · · · · · · Do we need to talk about any preliminary ·8· ·matters, or can we get to the next witness? ·9· · · · · · · · · MR. OLSON:· I think we can get to the next 10· ·witness, Your Honor. 11· · · · · · · · · MR. GESSLER:· Nothing from us, Your Honor. 12· · · · · · · · · MS. RASKIN:· I would just like to renew 13· ·our motion to exclude testimony from yesterday.· I would 14· ·like to renew our motion to exclude the testimony of 15· ·Mr. Magliocca, 702. 16· · · · · · · · · THE COURT:· And that -- that motion is 17· ·denied on the basis of my previous written ruling. 18· · · · · · · · · Anything from the Secretary? 19· · · · · · · · · MR. KOTLARCZYK:· No preliminary matters 20· ·for the Secretary, Your Honor. 21· · · · · · · · · THE COURT:· Great.· Let's call your next 22· ·witness. 23· · · · · · · · · MR. MURRAY:· Your Honor, would you like 24· ·entries of appearance first? 25· · · · · · · · · THE COURT:· Yes.· Thank you. U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com 8 YVer1f FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 ·1· · · · · · · · · MR. MURRAY:· For petitioners, ·2· ·Jason Murray, Eric Olson, and Sean Grimsley, ·3· ·Martha Tierney, Mario Nicolais, and Nikhel Sus. ·4· · · · · · · · · THE COURT:· Thank you. ·5· · · · · · · · · MR. GESSLER:· Your Honor, on behalf of ·6· ·President Trump, I have to look around to see who's here ·7· ·today.· Myself, Scott Gessler, Jacob Roth.· Next to me, ·8· ·Jonathan Shaw and Chris Halbohn. ·9· · · · · · · · · MS. RASKIN:· Jane Raskin, Mike Melito, 10· ·Nathan Moelker and Robert Kitsmiller on behalf of the 11· ·Republican State Central Committee. 12· · · · · · · · · MR. KOTLARCZYK:· And good morning, 13· ·Your Honor.· Michael Kotlarczyk on behalf of the 14· ·Secretary of State, joined with Jennifer Sullivan from 15· ·the Attorney General's Office and Deputy Secretary of 16· ·State, Christopher Beall. 17· · · · · · · · · THE COURT:· Great.· Thank you. 18· · · · · · · · · And thank you, Mr. Murray. 19· · · · · · · · · MR. MURRAY:· Of course. 20· · · · · · · · · Petitioners call Professor Gerard 21· ·Magliocca to the stand. 22· · · · · · · · · THE COURT:· Professor Magliocca. 23· · · · · · · · · · · ·GERARD MAGLIOCCA, 24· ·having been first duly sworn, was examined and 25· ·testified as follows: U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com 9 YVer1f FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 ·1· · · · · · · · · · · DIRECT EXAMINATION ·2· ·BY MR. MURRAY: ·3· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Good morning, Professor.· Could you ·4· ·introduce yourself, please. ·5· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· I'm Gerard Magliocca. ·6· · · · · · ·Q.· ·How do you spell your last name? ·7· · · · · · ·A.· ·M-a-g-l-i-o-c-c-a. ·8· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Where do you work? ·9· · · · · · ·A.· ·I teach at the Indiana University, 10· ·Robert H. McKinney School of Law. 11· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Now, you're here as an expert today.· What 12· ·topics are you here to testify about? 13· · · · · · ·A.· ·I am here to give expert testimony on the 14· ·history of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment. 15· · · · · · ·Q.· ·How long have you been at Indiana 16· ·University McKinney School of Law? 17· · · · · · ·A.· ·22 years. 18· · · · · · ·Q.· ·And in those 22 years, has your 19· ·scholarship had any particular focus? 20· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· I focus mainly on constitutional 21· ·history. 22· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Are you a member of any professional 23· ·organizations related to constitutional history? 24· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· I'm a member of the Supreme Court 25· ·Historical Society, the American Society of Legal U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com 10 YVer1f FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 ·1· ·Historians, and I'm on the board of editors of the ·2· ·Journal of American Constitutional History. ·3· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Can you give us a general overview of what ·4· ·kinds of published works you have in the area of ·5· ·constitutional history? ·6· · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, I've written five books and ·7· ·something in the neighborhood of 20 law review articles ·8· ·on various constitutional history subjects. ·9· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Have you written any books specifically 10· ·about the Fourteenth Amendment or its history? 11· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· About ten years ago, I wrote a 12· ·biography of Congressman John Bingham, who was the main 13· ·drafter of Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment as a 14· ·member of the Joint Committee on Reconstruction. 15· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Have you written any academic articles or 16· ·journals related to the history of the Fourteenth 17· ·Amendment? 18· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· I have four articles that cover 19· ·different aspects of the history of Section 1, Section 2, 20· ·and Section 3 of the Amendment. 21· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Do you have any other articles about 22· ·19th century history? 23· · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, yes, several.· I mean, some of them 24· ·cover the period of Jacksonian democracy.· Some cover the 25· ·period in the late 19th century, sort of around the U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com 11 YVer1f FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 ·1· ·Populist period or the Gilded Age, and others of my -- my ·2· ·books also focus on different aspects of those subjects. ·3· · · · · · ·Q.· ·You mention that you've written on the ·4· ·subject of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment.· Tell ·5· ·us about that. ·6· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· So in 2020, I drafted a paper on ·7· ·Section 3, and that paper was posted to the Social ·8· ·Science Research Network, which is the place where ·9· ·professors post their draft papers to share with the 10· ·public, in December of 2020. 11· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Was that later published? 12· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· That was published in 2021 in 13· ·Constitutional Commentary, which is a peer-reviewed 14· ·journal run out of the University of Minnesota. 15· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Before you posted your article about 16· ·Section 3 on SSRN in December of 2020, give us a sense of 17· ·the state of the existing scholarship on Section 3 of the 18· ·Fourteenth Amendment. 19· · · · · · ·A.· ·There really wasn't any. 20· · · · · · ·Q.· ·How, if at all, has that changed since 21· ·then? 22· · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, it's changed quite a bit, especially 23· ·in the last few months. 24· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Have you written any other articles about 25· ·Section 3? U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com 12 YVer1f FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 ·1· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· I have a draft paper that is going ·2· ·to be coming out in the Journal of Constitutional History ·3· ·that's -- or Constitutional Law that is kind of run out ·4· ·of the University of Pennsylvania.· That was given as a ·5· ·talk at a symposium in January on the Fourteenth ·6· ·Amendment. ·7· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Can you tell us whether any of your work ·8· ·on Section 3 has ever been cited by courts? ·9· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· My original article was cited by the 10· ·United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, as 11· ·well as a Federal District Court in Georgia. 12· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Has your work on Section 3 ever been cited 13· ·by any government agencies? 14· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· The Congressional Research Service 15· ·cited the article in an analysis of Section 3 that they 16· ·did. 17· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Have you ever given expert testimony on 18· ·Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment? 19· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I have.· I gave expert testimony on 20· ·the history of the Amendment in an administrative 21· ·proceeding in Georgia that was addressing the eligibility 22· ·of Representative Taylor Greene. 23· · · · · · ·Q.· ·I want to pull up Petitioners' 24· ·Exhibit 162. 25· · · · · · · · · What is this? U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com 13 YVer1f FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 ·1· · · · · · ·A.· ·This is my CV. ·2· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Is it current? ·3· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes. ·4· · · · · · ·Q.· ·I don't want to talk about every entry ·5· ·here, but just briefly, can you summarize your ·6· ·educational background for us. ·7· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· I received my undergraduate degree ·8· ·from Stanford and my law degree from Yale. ·9· · · · · · ·Q.· ·If you go to the second page, just tell us 10· ·briefly which of the books on your CV relate to 11· ·19th century history or constitutional history. 12· · · · · · ·A.· ·All five of the ones that have been 13· ·published. 14· · · · · · ·Q.· ·And is this entry here the biography you 15· ·were referring to about John Bingham? 16· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, it is. 17· · · · · · ·Q.· ·And if we go down to "Book Chapters, Law 18· ·Review, Articles and Essays," we see a few entries 19· ·related to Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment. 20· · · · · · · · · Were those the forthcoming article and the 21· ·previously published article -- 22· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes. 23· · · · · · ·Q.· ·-- that you mentioned earlier? 24· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes. 25· · · · · · ·Q.· ·And briefly, on page 4, can you just U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com 14 YVer1f FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 ·1· ·highlight for us on this page of your CV some of the ·2· ·articles here that relate to 19th century history or ·3· ·the history of the Fourteenth Amendment. ·4· · · · · · ·A.· ·Sure.· The one at the top is about ·5· ·Section 2 of the Fourteenth Amendment. ·6· · · · · · · · · Then also the one, let's see, going down a ·7· ·little bit -- okay, "Why did the Incorporation of the ·8· ·Bill of Rights Fail in the Late 19th Century" is a ·9· ·19th century historical piece. 10· · · · · · · · · And then also the one that's entitled 11· ·"Indians and Invaders:· The Citizenship Clause and 12· ·Illegal Aliens" focuses on Section 1 of the Amendment, on 13· ·the citizenship clause of Section 1. 14· · · · · · · · · And the paper on the legal tender cases, 15· ·"A New Approach to Congressional Power, Revisiting the 16· ·Legal Tender Cases" is about the Supreme Court decisions 17· ·on the constitutionality of paper money that were 18· ·rendered in the 1860s and 18- -- well, up into the 1880s. 19· · · · · · · · · "Constitutional False Positives in the 20· ·Populist Moment" was about constitutional development in 21· ·the late 19th century, basically focusing on the 1890s. 22· · · · · · · · · "Cherokee Removal and the Fourteenth 23· ·Amendment" was talking about the Trail of Tears and then 24· ·how that had an influence on some of the thinking behind 25· ·Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment. U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com 15 YVer1f FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 ·1· · · · · · ·Q.· ·If we go to the next page of your CV, you ·2· ·have a list of recent professional activities. ·3· · · · · · · · · Do any of those relate to the history of ·4· ·the Fourteenth Amendment? ·5· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· So the podcast on Section 4, which I ·6· ·haven't written a whole article about that, but I did ·7· ·write about that in one -- a piece of one article.· I did ·8· ·a podcast with Eric Foner, who is basically America's ·9· ·leading historian on Reconstruction, earlier this year. 10· · · · · · · · · And then the symposium piece is the one I 11· ·mentioned earlier.· That's my draft paper about another 12· ·aspect of Section 3. 13· · · · · · · · · And then the -- there was a presentation 14· ·about the Section 3 article last fall.· And then I gave a 15· ·talk last year about my biography of Bushrod Washington 16· ·at John Marshall's house, which was rather fun. 17· · · · · · ·Q.· ·And on the last page, I'm not going to 18· ·highlight all of these, but did some of these also relate 19· ·to Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment? 20· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· I did a podcast with Professor Dan 21· ·Hemel in January of 2021 about Section 3.· That was, of 22· ·course, in the immediate aftermath of January 6, 2021. 23· · · · · · ·Q.· ·And what about this entry about John 24· ·Bingham with Kurt Lash? 25· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah.· So that was a podcast I did with U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com 16 YVer1f FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 ·1· ·Professor Lash for the National Constitution Center about ·2· ·John Bingham's career that was part of a series of events ·3· ·that commemorated the 150th anniversary of the ·4· ·ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment in 2018. ·5· · · · · · ·Q.· ·When you're doing your historical ·6· ·scholarship on the Fourteenth Amendment, what kinds of ·7· ·sources do you consider? ·8· · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, I mean, I'm trying to look at ·9· ·primary sources because that's the best way to try to get 10· ·at the truth of what happened.· So I'm always most 11· ·interested in looking at those. 12· · · · · · ·Q.· ·What are the -- what are the types of 13· ·primary sources that you would look at in your 14· ·scholarship? 15· · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, they kind of run the gamut, but you 16· ·could look at congressional debates and reports.· You can 17· ·look at presidential documents.· You can look at judicial 18· ·cases. 19· · · · · · · · · You can look at contemporary newspapers, 20· ·contemporary books, basically any kind of source that 21· ·would be a sort of firsthand account of what occurred in 22· ·a particular time period. 23· · · · · · ·Q.· ·I'm pulling up Petitioners' Exhibit 144. 24· ·What is this exhibit? 25· · · · · · ·A.· ·This is an index of the materials that I U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com 17 YVer1f FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 ·1· ·considered for my expert report. ·2· · · · · · ·Q.· ·And if we walk through this index, we see ·3· ·some cases.· There's some citations to law review ·4· ·articles, some statutes, citations to Congressional ·5· ·Record, et cetera. ·6· · · · · · · · · Are those the sorts of materials that you ·7· ·would review in your historical scholarship outside the ·8· ·courtroom? ·9· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, they are. 10· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Tell us a bit about the historical 11· ·methodology that you used in forming your opinions in 12· ·this case. 13· · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, I mean, the first thing you want to 14· ·do is make sure that the sources you're looking at are 15· ·true and accurate.· I mean, usually that's pretty 16· ·straightforward because they are official government 17· ·records of one sort or another. 18· · · · · · · · · You know, for example, there was an 19· ·official compilation of presidential documents assembled 20· ·at the end of the 19th century, and I have a set in my 21· ·office that I found in an antique shop one time.· And so 22· ·I refer to that just to make sure, if I see a document 23· ·online, that I can look it up to make sure it's a real 24· ·document and not -- there's not some error in 25· ·transcription or something. U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com 18 YVer1f FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 ·1· · · · · · · · · For newspapers, it's a little more ·2· ·challenging.· I mean, there are some sort of trustworthy ·3· ·databases of old newspapers.· One's run by the Library of ·4· ·Congress. ·5· · · · · · · · · You can also cross-check newspapers ·6· ·because typically an article would be reprinted more than ·7· ·once, or at least the sort of substance of the article ·8· ·would be reprinted in another newspaper.· So you can try ·9· ·to make sure that whatever you're looking at is, in fact, 10· ·an accurate rendition of whatever the article is 11· ·discussing. 12· · · · · · ·Q.· ·As a historian, what do you do if there is 13· ·some kind of ambiguity or mismatch among different 14· ·historical sources? 15· · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, look, the first thing you're looking 16· ·at is kind of what is the context of the source. 17· · · · · · · · · Now, for example, in the case of the 18· ·Fourteenth Amendment, you would be more interested in 19· ·what supporters of the Amendment had to say than you 20· ·would be about what an opponent of the Amendment would 21· ·have said, in the same way that if you were looking at a 22· ·judicial opinion, you'd be more interested in what the 23· ·Court said rather than what any dissenting opinions said 24· ·to understand what the opinion was about. 25· · · · · · · · · Also, you would look at who the speaker or U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com 19 YVer1f FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 ·1· ·author was.· Now, in -- some people are just more ·2· ·authoritative than others in their exposition of the ·3· ·Fourteenth Amendment.· And, you know, at the top of the ·4· ·list or near the top would be John Bingham, I mean, not ·5· ·just because I wrote a book about him, but because he was ·6· ·centrally involved in all elements of the Fourteenth ·7· ·Amendment's proposal and ratification and implementation. ·8· ·And this has been recognized by the Supreme Court many ·9· ·times and by scholars many times. 10· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Can you tell us whether or not the 11· ·historical methodology that you've just laid out was the 12· ·method that you used in forming and presenting your 13· ·opinions in this case? 14· · · · · · ·A.· ·It was. 15· · · · · · · · · MR. MURRAY:· At this time, petitioners 16· ·move to admit Professor Magliocca as an expert in the 17· ·history of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment. 18· · · · · · · · · MR. GESSLER:· Your Honor, we have no 19· ·objection to Professor Magliocca's expertise. 20· · · · · · · · · Obviously we renew and endorse the 21· ·702 motion, Your Honor. 22· · · · · · · · · THE COURT:· Professor Magliocca will be 23· ·admitted as an expert in the history of Section 3 of 24· ·14 -- of the Fourteenth Amendment. 25· · · · · · · · · MR. MURRAY:· Thank you, Your Honor. U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com 20 YVer1f FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 ·1· · · · · · ·Q.· (By Mr. Murray)· Let's start by setting the ·2· ·stage for the adoption of Section 3. ·3· · · · · · · · · What does the historical record tell us ·4· ·about why Section 3 was put into the Fourteenth Amendment ·5· ·in the first place? ·6· · · · · · ·A.· ·Well, the main thing that prompted ·7· ·Section 3 was that they wanted to keep officials who had ·8· ·left to join the Confederacy from returning to office ·9· ·unless they showed that they deserved a second chance to 10· ·return to office. 11· · · · · · · · · So basically there were elections held 12· ·throughout the South in 1865 after the war ended, and 13· ·many of the same people who had been in office before the 14· ·war and had left to join the Confederacy were returned to 15· ·office.· And some of them showed up to the new Congress 16· ·and essentially said, "Okay, we're here to take our seats 17· ·now," as if nothing had happened. 18· · · · · · · · · And Congressional Republicans were very 19· ·upset at this idea.· They felt that this was wrong.· And 20· ·so there was a proposal by the Joint Committee on 21· ·Reconstruction to do something to exclude people like 22· ·that from positions of authority unless they demonstrated 23· ·some repentance or, you know, deserved forgiveness. 24· · · · · · ·Q.· ·Does the historical record tell us 25· ·anything about whether that was intended as punishment U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com 21 YVer1f FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 ·1· ·for insurrectionists? ·2· · · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· I mean, it was not intended as ·3· ·punishment.· There was -- a number of senators discussed ·4· ·the fact that this was simply adding another ·5· ·qualification to office because of the events that had ·6· ·occurred. ·7· · · · · · ·Q.· ·What does the historical record tell us ·8· ·about the role that the oath plays in Section 3? ·9· · · · · · ·A.· ·So the oath plays a central role, not just 10· ·in the text, but in the rationale for Section 3 in two 11· ·respects. 12· · · · · · · · · I mean, the first is it was a way of 13· ·limiting the scope of the provision.· They didn't want to 14· ·disqualify all former Confederates from office or from 15· ·serving.· They wanted to focus that on the people they 16· ·thought were most responsible for Secession and the Civil 17· ·War, and the oath was a way to do that. 18· · · · · · · · · Now, secondly, senators said if you had 19· ·sworn an oath to support the Constitution and you had 20· ·broken it by engaging in insurrection and joining the 21· ·Confederacy, it was a kind of moral perjury -- that was 22· ·the term that some people used -- that you had engaged in 23· ·and you were just untrustworthy to hold office again 24· ·unless you demonstrated some reason why you should be 25· ·allowed a second chance. U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com 22 YVer1f FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 5 Proceedings Day 3 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 02/06/2024 November 01, 2023 ·1· · · · · · ·Q.· ·What, if anything, does the historical ·2· ·record tell us about whether Section 3 was limited to the ·3· ·events of the Civil War or not? ·4· · · · · · ·A.· ·It was not limited to the events of the ·5· ·Civil War, and we know that because, first, the language ·6· ·was general.· It just referred to insurrection or ·7· ·rebellion, and secondly, there were senators in the ·8· ·debate that made pointedly clear that they thought it ·9· ·also should apply to any future insurrection that might 10· ·occur. 11· · · · · · ·Q.· ·When did the Fourteenth Amendment get 12· ·ratified? 13· · · · · · ·A.· ·1868. 14· · · · · · ·Q.· ·In the years after its ratification, walk 15· ·us through some of the ways that Section 3 got enforced 16· ·to exclude from office those who had been engaged in 17· ·insurrection or rebellion in violation of their oath. 18· · · · · · ·A.· ·Okay.· So this happened in different 19· ·forms.· In some states that were under martial law, the 20· ·Union Army did the enforcing. 21· · · · · · · · · In southern states that were no longer 22· ·under martial law, state officials and state courts did 23· ·the enforcing. 24· · · · · · · · · Individual Houses of Congress also 25· ·sometimes did the enforcing if someone was a member elect U.S. Legal Support | www.uslegalsupport.com 23 YVer1f FILED: ALBANY COUNTY CLERK 02/06/2024 11:40 PM INDEX NO. 901393-24 NYSCEF DOC. 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