Preview
FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 01/04/2024 11:10 PM INDEX NO. 452564/2022
NYSCEF DOC. NO. 1658 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 01/04/2024
In The Matter Of:
NYS Attorney General v.
Donald J. Trump
November 20, 2023
Ny Supreme Court- Civil
Original File NYS Attorney General v Donald J. Trump.txt
Min-U-Script® with Word Index
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FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 01/04/2024 11:10 PM INDEX NO. 452564/2022
NYSCEF DOC. NO.
NYS 1658 General v.
Attorney RECEIVED NYSCEF: 01/04/2024
Donald J. Trump November 20, 2023
Page 4781 Proceedings Page 4783
1 SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK
COUNTY OF NEW YORK: CIVIL TERM: PART 37 1 COURT OFFICER: All rise. Part 37 is now in
2 ----------------------------------------------------X 2 session. The Honorable Judge Arthur Engoron presiding.
PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK, BY LETITIA
3 JAMES, ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE STATE OF NEW 3 Make sure all cell phones are on silent.
YORK,
4 4 Laptops and cell phones will be permitted, but only to
Plaintiff, 5 members of the press. There is absolutely no recording or
5
- against - INDEX # 6 photography of any kind allowed in the courtroom.
6 452564/2022
DONALD J. TRUMP; DONALD TRUMP JR.; ERIC TRUMP; 7 Now be seated and come to order.
7 IVANKA TRUMP; ALLEN WEISSELBERG; JEFFREY 8 THE COURT: Trying to figure out which of the
McCONNEY; THE DONALD J. TRUMP REVOCABLE TRUST;
8 THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION, INC.; TRUMP ORGANIZATION 9 attorneys is going to sit in which seat is like the
LLC; DJT HOLDINGS, LLC; DJT HOLDINGS MANAGING
9 MEMBER; TRUMP ENDEAVOR 12, LLC; 401 NORTH WABASH 10 Kremlinologist who was standing there on the mausoleum.
VENTURE, LLC; TRUMP OLD POST OFFICE, LLC; 40 WALL 11 Defendants, would you like to call your next
10 STREET, LLC; and SEVEN SPRINGS, LLC,
11 Defendants. 12 witness?
----------------------------------------------------X
12 Bench Trial 13 MR. FIELDS: Yes, Your Honor. We called David
13 November 20, 2023 14 Miller.
60 Centre Street
14 New York, New York 10007 15 And good morning.
15
B E F O R E: THE HONORABLE ARTHUR S. ENGORON, 16 THE COURT: Good morning, Mr. Fields.
16 Justice of the Supreme Court 17 (Whereupon, the witness took the stand.)
17
18 A P P E A R A N C E S: 18 COURT OFFICER: Please remain standing. Raise
19
20 OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL 19 your right hand.
OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK - LETITIA JAMES
21 Attorneys for the Plaintiff 20 D A V I D B R I A N M I L L E R, after
28 Liberty Street 21 having first been duly sworn was examined and
22 New York, NY 10005
By: KEVIN WALLACE, ESQ. 22 testified as follows:
23 COLLEEN K. FAHERTY, ESQ. 23 COURT OFFICER: Please have a seat.
ANDREW AMER, ESQ.
24 ERIC HAREN, ESQ. 24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
LOUIS SOLOMON, ESQ.
25 25 COURT OFFICER: Please state your name and
Proceedings Page 4782 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4784
1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (Cont'd) 1 either home or business address for the record.
2
3 CONTINENTAL PLLC 2 THE WITNESS: David Brian Miller, 119 East
Attorneys for Defendants 3 Muriel Street, Orlando, Florida.
4 101 North Monroe Street, Suite 750
Tallahassee, FL 32302 4 THE COURT: David Brian Miller, I ask you to
5 By: CHRISTOPHER KISE, ESQ.
LAZARO FIELDS, ESQ. 5 speak very close to the microphone, they are very
6 JESUS SUAREZ, ESQ. 6 sensitive, right into it. Loudly.
7
8 ROBERT & ROBERT, PLLC 7 And Mr. Fields, please begin.
Attorneys for Defendants 8 MR. FIELDS: Thank you.
9 526 RXR Plaza
Uniondale, NY 11556 9 DIRECT EXAMINATION
10 By: CLIFFORD ROBERT, ESQ. 10 BY MR. FIELDS:
11
12 11 Q Good morning.
HABBA MADAIO & ASSOCIATES, LLP
13 Attorneys for Defendants 12 A Good morning.
1430 US Highway 296, Suite 240 13 Q Where did you attend college, Mr. Miller?
14 Bedminster, NJ 07921
By: ALINA HABBA, ESQ. 14 A I attended the Edinboro University for my Bachelor of
15 15 Arts; Youngstown State University for Master's in psychology;
16
17 MORIAN LAW, PLLC 16 and Ashland University for a Master's in business
Attorneys for Defendants 17 administration.
18 60 East 42nd Street, Suite 4600
New York, NY 10165 18 Q After your Master's degree, were you gainfully
19 By: ARMEN MORIAN, ESQ.
20 19 employed with an insurance company?
21 20 A Yes, I was.
THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION
22 Attorneys for the Defendant 21 Q What insurance company was that?
725 Fifth Avenue 22 A Eerie Insurance Group.
23 New York, NY 10022
By: ALAN GARTEN, ESQ. 23 Q Do you recall approximately what year you started
24 MICHELE PANTELOUKAS 24 with them?
MICHAEL RANITA
25 Senior Court Reporters 25 A Approximately 1975.
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NYSCEF DOC. NO.
NYS 1658 General v.
Attorney RECEIVED NYSCEF: 01/04/2024
Donald J. Trump November 20, 2023
Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4785 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4787
1 Q What were your jobs with Eerie Insurance Group when 1 marketing and profitability of all of the agents in that
2 you got started? 2 territory.
3 A I started out as a claims adjustor. 3 Q When you say, "sales and marketing," what does that
4 Q What does that mean? 4 mean for an insurance company?
5 A Well, I investigated and handled claims for autos; 5 A That means the agents writing lines of business that
6 homes; professional liability; bonding; all lines of business 6 the company wanted to, whether it was home, auto, professional
7 at the company that the company wrote at that time. I was an 7 liability, bonds, I was responsible for getting them to write
8 all lines claims adjustor. 8 what the company was looking for.
9 Q So as a claims adjustor, are you one of the first 9 Q And at this juncture as the branch manager, were you
10 individuals at the company to investigate whether the claim 10 a vice president at Eerie Insurance?
11 should be properly or should be paid or not? 11 A Yes, I was.
12 A Yes, I was responsible for investigating the claim, 12 Q All right. And then lastly, did you have a final
13 understanding the policy language, and determining if there was 13 role at Eerie during this period in time that you were employed
14 coverage that was applicable. 14 there?
15 Q And I think you mentioned professional liability, did 15 A Yes. After I was the branch manager I was promoted
16 you work on those types of matters as a claims adjustor? 16 to Vice President of Marketing and Branch Operations. And at
17 A Yes, I did. 17 that I was responsible for all of the marketing materials, all
18 Q What do you mean by professional liability? 18 of the lines of business and how they were presented to the
19 A Things like Directors & Officers malpractice, Errors 19 public. I was also responsible for all of the branch
20 and Omissions. 20 operations and the branch managers -- the claims operation and
21 Q After your time as a claims adjustor, did you get 21 the sales operations reported up through me.
22 promoted or put into a new role? 22 Q So in total, were you there at Eerie for
23 A Yes, I did. 23 approximately 15 or 16 years?
24 Q What role is that? 24 A Yes.
25 A I got put into subrogation recovery manager. And in 25 Q That culminated with you being the Vice President for
Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4786 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4788
1 that role I reviewed claims adjustors' work; and worked with 1 Marketing and Branch Operations?
2 legal firms to collect money back that the company had paid 2 A Yes, that's correct.
3 that we were due to recover through a process called 3 Q And where did you go when you left Eerie at this
4 subrogation. 4 time?
5 Q So as a recovery subrogation manager are you, in 5 A I left and started my own independent insurance
6 effect, one step above the claims adjustor? 6 agency in Gaithersburg, Maryland.
7 A Yes. 7 Q What were some of your responsibilities when you
8 Q How about after your time as a recovery subrogation 8 started your own business?
9 manager, what was your next role like at Eerie? 9 A Well, in starting my own business I was responsible
10 A I was a district sales manager. I was recruited to 10 for doing what I had told people to do. I had to go out and
11 develop the northwest section of Ohio where I recruited and 11 sell insurance to meet different guidelines, to find insurance
12 trained all of the agents, independent agents, to represent 12 the company was looking for.
13 Eerie Insurance Group. And I was responsible for all lines of 13 Because of my past experience with the company, I was
14 business that was produced by those agents. 14 given underwriting authority of up to a million dollars. So I
15 Q And at this point were you an Associate Vice 15 had the ability to write business and bind the business and
16 President? 16 make decisions about what was acceptable to the company because
17 A I was Associate Vice President, yes. 17 of my past relationship with them. So, I was able to write
18 Q Okay. After that, did you have any role? 18 bonds, D&O, autos, home, commercial lines, garage, commercial
19 A Yes. I was promoted to Eerie Branch Manager where I 19 auto; all of the lines that Eerie wrote. And in those lines I
20 was in charge of all of the agency force agent licensing and 20 had a million dollars of binding authority before I had to get
21 marketing for the company. And in that I was responsible for 21 approval from any underwriter to accept the business.
22 the claims operations and the sales and marketing operation. 22 Q So, if I understood your testimony, because you
23 The claims operation reported to me and I reviewed the -- with 23 worked at Eerie, Eerie allowed you up to a million dollars in
24 the claims manager, difficult claims in the claims operations. 24 underwriting authority to underwrite business for them yourself
25 And then I was also responsible for the sales and 25 as a broker?
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Attorney RECEIVED NYSCEF: 01/04/2024
Donald J. Trump November 20, 2023
Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4789 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4791
1 A Yes. I had discretion to bind the business and 1 A Commercial underwriting, which included property
2 underwrite the business at that agency level. 2 casualty; Bonding; Errors and Omissions; Directors & Officers,
3 THE COURT: He asked you as a broker. Isn't it 3 that all came under the property casualty heading. Then I had
4 as an agent? 4 commercial auto and commercial trucking; garage liability; and
5 THE WITNESS: I had both licenses. I had both 5 garage dealerships; commercial processing; commercial quoting
6 licenses, and in that relationship I did have an agency 6 and commercial risk management.
7 contract with them. 7 Q As part of your roll overseeing the commercial
8 THE COURT: I seem to remember, tell me if I am 8 processing division, I believe it was that you said?
9 right or wrong, the agent represents the insurance 9 A Yes.
10 company; the broker represents the insured. 10 Q Did that involve policy language and altering policy
11 THE WITNESS: Right. That's the distinction. 11 language based on the insurance company's preference and what
12 THE COURT: So you were an agent, not a broker. 12 they wanted?
13 THE WITNESS: I had both roles. In the capacity 13 A Yes. Part of my -- part of the property casualty and
14 I was writing it was in an agent capacity. You are right, 14 part of the -- as the Chief Underwriting Officer, I was
15 Your Honor. 15 involved. When I first -- particularly when I first went back,
16 Q What type of insurance did you place with David B. 16 I changed the policies that we were doing business with. The
17 Miller insurance? 17 policies were a little bit antiquated, so we rewrote the policy
18 A All lines that Eerie offered. I had blanket 18 and I was in charge of making sure the policies were rewritten
19 authority to write all of the lines. 19 correctly. We prepared many new endorsements which targeted
20 Q Did that include excess surplus lines policies? 20 markets, and by targeting the markets, it put us in a better
21 A Eerie Insurance did have an excess surplus lines 21 competitive position. And I made sure that those endorsements
22 division, and I could write through them. But I was also 22 to the policies were done correctly. So we completely
23 licensed with other excess surplus lines carriers; typically 23 modernized the policies being offered by the commercial
24 called "wholesalers" in the industry. And I had licenses with 24 division. And I was in charge of that operation and project.
25 those various organizations. 25 Q How about Chief Underwriting Officer, what were your
Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4790 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4792
1 Q Could you help us understand what excess surplus 1 responsibilities as the Chief Underwriting Officer?
2 lines means? 2 A Well, my -- my chief duty is to make sure we weren't
3 A Yes. Excess surplus lines means it is not regulated 3 making a huge mistake. But --
4 by the state you are doing business in. Basically it allows 4 THE COURT: Mine too, by the way.
5 that company to tailormake a policy to have more discretion in 5 A I saw the difficult cases, so when it came to me --
6 pricing, they don't have to follow their prices; they don't 6 the average, everyday business was done by the standard
7 have to follow their forms. So it gives them more latitude in 7 underwriters or maybe their manager or supervisor. And then
8 being able to customize a policy. It gives them more latitude 8 when it came to more difficult cases, I actually did the
9 to use additions or exclusions in their policy that don't have 9 physical underwriting with them, reviewed their files, looked
10 to be filed. And it allows them to price the policy according 10 at the materials, and made a decision whether the company had
11 to their judgment of what their risk may be. 11 the capacity and willingness to take on that risk. So, it was
12 Q All right. Where did you go to next after David B. 12 my final say-so what backed up the company's money and their
13 Miller insurance? 13 exposure. And so, you know, if it was a large bond or a large
14 A I went back to Eerie Insurance Group. 14 D&O or a large commercial account, very often I had the final
15 Q And in what position or capacity did you return to 15 say-so. I had the ultimate say-so. In fact, I had more
16 Eerie? 16 authority in that area than the CEO, because I was the Chief
17 A I had several capacities. My title was Senior Vice 17 Underwriting Officer. And with that comes, you get praised
18 President and Division Officer; Corporate Risk Manager; Chief 18 when you make money and you take the hit if you lose money.
19 Senior Underwriting Officer and President of Eerie Surplus 19 Thank heavens I always made money, so I didn't have
20 Agency. 20 to take the other side of the coin.
21 Q Did you have several divisions that you were 21 Q Probably a good point to talk about the hierarchy at
22 responsible for? 22 Eerie Insurance and just insurers generally. But are
23 A Yes, I had about five divisions that I was 23 underwriters generally given what is called levels of
24 responsible for. 24 authority?
25 Q What were they? 25 A Yes.
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NYSCEF DOC. NO.
NYS 1658 General v.
Attorney RECEIVED NYSCEF: 01/04/2024
Donald J. Trump November 20, 2023
Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4793 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4795
1 Q Could you just explain a little bit how that works? 1 independent agency into about the 15th largest independent
2 A Yes. Well, in particular I can explain how Eerie 2 agency in the Tristate area: Maryland, Virginia, DC. I was
3 worked. We had underwriters one, two, and three. And that was 3 licensed in 42 states. We had the largest beauty school,
4 based on their experience and time at the job. 4 professional liability program in the company in 42 states. We
5 So, as an example, somebody that just came in that 5 also did commercial business all throughout the country. We
6 was learning how to underwrite, we would give level one where 6 did about 12,000 policies and personal lines, auto, home,
7 they would have a minimum amount of authority or maybe no 7 personal umbrella.
8 authority. They had to have everything checked by somebody 8 But the bulk of the business was done in the
9 above them in order to put the monies of the company at risk. 9 commercial lines: Commercial property, commercial casualty,
10 Then an underwriter two would have a little more 10 bonding, Directors Officers, all of those lines of business.
11 authority, say maybe to a half a million dollars. And they 11 And personally I did pretty much all commercial business and
12 would be allowed to underwrite risk falling below that 12 that's what I specialized in.
13 category; and if they had more exposure they had to get 13 Q And do you recall approximately when you left Inner
14 approval. 14 Harbor?
15 An underwriter three would have a million dollars, in 15 A Yes. I left Inner Harbor in about 2007.
16 some cases $2 million, where they would be allowed to accept 16 Q And where did you go next?
17 that type of risk on behalf of the company. Because by the 17 A I went to Harbor Companies, started my own consulting
18 time they got to underwriter three they generally had ten or 18 company. When you get to a certain size in the independent
19 more years experience, and so they pretty much knew what they 19 agency business, sometimes companies want to come in because
20 were doing. 20 you are a desirable candidate to get purchased. And that's
21 And above that it went to the manager and then to me. 21 what happened. Somebody wanted to purchase the company. So I
22 Q You also said that you were Eerie's Corporate Risk 22 had a non-compete, except for consulting and doing expert
23 Manager? 23 witness work. And so I started that company and developed
24 A Yes. 24 Harbor Companies, who I presently work for.
25 Q What does that mean? 25 Q You mentioned consulting and expert witness work, is
Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4794 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4796
1 A Well, we did self insurance, so the risk management, 1 that what you are primarily doing now with Harbor Companies?
2 the inspection of the physical buildings, making sure that the 2 A Yes, that's correct.
3 things like the fire extinguishers, you know, the boilers, and 3 Q What type of insurance consulting are you doing now?
4 everything got processed, permitted correctly. All of that 4 A I do mostly expert witness work. But I have also
5 stuff was done by my assistants and then passed up through me. 5 done consulting work for educational programs, training
6 Also, I looked at the Worker's Compensation program 6 programs for employees, guest lecturing for training programs
7 and managed the risk of that program; worked out the pricing 7 for employees. I worked for companies like USAA, AIG, Mutual
8 terms and conditions for that program; monitored the accidents 8 companies.
9 associated with employees automobiles driver safety programs, 9 Eerie had me back several times to teach agents how I
10 carpal tunnel programs, educational programs for the betterment 10 grew an agency, because by industry standards I grew the agency
11 of employees, to keep them safe from having occupational 11 very quickly. So they all wanted to know what is your secret,
12 hazards or accidents. 12 how did you do it. Like I had a magic thing. It is hard work.
13 So that was the responsibility. And we tracked all 13 But they wanted to know what I did. So, those are the type of
14 of that stuff and managed it, because most of the things, 14 programs that I put on to educate and teach.
15 accept the Worker's Compensation, we self insured. So 15 Q And do you have a sense for approximately how many
16 everything we saved was money to the bottom line. 16 cases you have served as an expert witness?
17 Q So, approximately how long did you work at Eerie in 17 A Over 100.
18 total? 18 Q And have you testified at trial previously?
19 A Approximately 22 years. 19 A Yes.
20 Q And did you leave Eerie in approximately 2001 the 20 Q Do you get a sense for how many times you have had
21 last time? 21 your deposition taken as an expert witness?
22 A Yes. 22 A I believe at last count it was 40 plus.
23 Q Where did you go next? 23 Q What are some of the topics you have provided expert
24 A I founded Inner Harbor Insurance Group. I bought a 24 testimony in?
25 small seed company in Bethesda, Maryland and grew that 25 A Well, I have done bonding cases as an expert witness
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NYS 1658 General v.
Attorney RECEIVED NYSCEF: 01/04/2024
Donald J. Trump November 20, 2023
Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4797 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4799
1 before. I have done some high profile D&O cases. I have done 1 A Yes. Eerie had asked me to come in. They would have
2 injury cases, bad faith cases, errors and omissions cases, 2 conferences where they would bring all of their agents in. And
3 medical malpractice cases. That's probably the bulk of what I 3 several times I taught marketing seminars to all of the agency
4 did. I did a couple lawyer malpractice. Not that that ever 4 force regarding all of the steps I used to market. And quite
5 happens. But I did a couple of lawyer malpractice cases. And 5 often they would say: Why are you willing to do that?
6 that's primarily what I do. 6 And I would say: Well, they are going to listen and
7 Q Have your engagements included representation of both 7 we will see who actually implements it. So my goal was to try
8 carriers and policyholders? 8 to get some people to go implement what I was -- what I was
9 A Yes. 9 trying to sell to them, so that they could write more business
10 Q Have you been retained by carriers to do educational 10 and overall enhance the business that they were giving to the
11 consulting? 11 company.
12 A Yes, I have. 12 Q All right. I would like to shift gears now and talk
13 Q What is educational consulting? 13 a little bit about your professional certifications or
14 A Well, I have done things from helping -- because I 14 designations. Do you hold any professional certifications or
15 had experience in developing policy language, I was asked by 15 designations?
16 one carrier to come in and look at their policies and offer 16 A I do.
17 solutions or endorsements, things to make it more competitive. 17 Q Okay. Do you hold any from what is called the
18 I have been asked to talk to independent agents about 18 Institutes?
19 how to properly market the product, how to get more business, 19 A Yes, I do.
20 how to develop your business quicker. 20 Q And what do you hold from the Institutes?
21 You know, what do companies really look for, how do I 21 A The most prestigious certification in the property
22 know that. I would teach them, say, look at the top ten 22 casualty industry is called the chartered property casualty
23 classes of business that a company is writing. And if you 23 underwriting CPCU. And I obtained that designation through ten
24 concentrate on writing those top ten classes of business you 24 examinations at the time and completed that work. And also the
25 are more likely to be successful than trying to get outlying 25 associate and risk management. It is a risk management course
Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4798 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4800
1 business that they don't want to write. So when you look at a 1 also offered by the Institutes, five exams, and passed those
2 company and determine what does that company -- particular 2 exams for risk management.
3 company like to write, then you are far more likely to be 3 Q And have you held those designations for over
4 successful in writing businesses. 4 approximately 25 years or so?
5 Q Outside of educational consulting, have you taught 5 A Yes.
6 courses related to insurance? 6 Q Are you familiar with the National Alliance?
7 A Yes. I was adjunct professor at Gannon University. 7 A I am.
8 As a matter of fact, I was the first professor in that program. 8 Q And do you hold any designations from them?
9 I taught risk management and insurance development. One of the 9 A Yes. They offer a program called the Certificated
10 things that I tried to do with my students at that level was to 10 Insurance Counselor. And that's a series of five exams. And I
11 teach them how to be a good consumer. I taught them how do you 11 have held that designation for over 30 years.
12 buy car insurance. How do you buy homeowner's insurance. How 12 And I have also taught a couple of classes for the
13 do you start a business. What does a business plan look like. 13 society in -- for general liability classes. I have taught a
14 How do you develop something that makes you look good to an 14 couple of institutes for them.
15 insurance company. How do you manage your personal assets and 15 Q How about the Professional Insurance Agents
16 how do you manage your personal self to make yourself 16 Association?
17 attractive from an insurance standpoint. 17 A Yes. They offer a program called the Certified
18 My goal was to make them a better consumer and 18 Professional Insurance Agents. And I also hold that
19 educated person that could go out and make a decent decision 19 designation. And I also served on the National Board of
20 once they left my classroom. 20 Directors for the Certified Professional Insurance Agents.
21 Q Did you do any -- let me withdraw that for a second. 21 Q And lastly, the National Association of Insurance and
22 You said Gannon University; is that G-A-N-N-O-N? 22 Financial Advisors; do you hold any designations from them?
23 A That's correct. 23 A Yes. I hold the Life Underwriting Training Counsel
24 Q And did you do any guest lecturing while you were at 24 Fellow designation, which is a series of financial and life
25 Eerie? 25 insurance classes.
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FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 01/04/2024 11:10 PM INDEX NO. 452564/2022
NYSCEF DOC. NO.
NYS 1658 General v.
Attorney RECEIVED NYSCEF: 01/04/2024
Donald J. Trump November 20, 2023
Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4801 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4803
1 Q So approximately how many years have you been working 1 clearly has a background at being able to explain what it
2 in the insurance industry, Mr. Miller? 2 is that insurance companies rely on; what it is they don't
3 A Forty plus. 3 rely on; what is material; what is not material; and how
4 MR. FIELDS: Your Honor, I tender Mr. Miller as 4 that goes into their analysis. I respectfully submit that
5 an expert in commercial insurance and surety underwriting. 5 is something outside of the ken of a normal juror or even,
6 MR. AMER: No objection, Your Honor. 6 respectfully, the Court.
7 THE COURT: I am not sure. I don't remember the 7 THE COURT: I think that was well argued,
8 exact language, but I believe that one is only to deem 8 Mr. Robert, for what that is worth. What they rely on.
9 someone an expert in areas that a normal juror or normal 9 Why wouldn't a fact witness tell me what they relied on
10 fact finder or normal Judge doesn't understand. I 10 when the Zurich witness did or didn't rely on things? Why
11 understood absolutely every phrase you used. There might 11 do I need an expert to tell me what insurance -- to me it
12 have been one point where I couldn't connect two words, I 12 is not a question of what insurance companies rely on so
13 am not sure I heard them correctly. 13 much as what this or these insurance companies relied on.
14 And Mr. Miller, I don't want you to take any 14 MR. ROBERT: When it comes to the issue of what
15 offense at any of this, but I don't see why I need an 15 the defendants did and what their intent was and what they
16 expert in what was just said. What could you explain that 16 submitted, that you need to understand from an expert how
17 I wouldn't understand just from hearing witnesses testify 17 an insurance company looks at things. You have already
18 and looking at documents? 18 heard the testimony -- and I always get the young woman's
19 But, if the plaintiff wants me to, I'll 19 name wrong, the one on the video.
20 reconsider. You said you had no objection. You didn't 20 MR. AMER: Mouradian.
21 say, yes, Judge, go ahead and do it. 21 MR. ROBERT: Mouradian, as to her view of
22 MR. AMER: There are two different questions. 22 things. And this expert is clearly able to lay a more
23 One is whether the witness has qualifications in the 23 detailed foundation as to generally what insurance
24 field; the other is whether the Court requires his 24 companies rely on themselves.
25 assistance as the finder of fact. We don't have a 25 In the prosecution's case they did not put
Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4802 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4804
1 position on the second point because I don't know what 1 anybody specifically from an insurance company beyond that
2 Your Honor requires assistance in. 2 one witness who was putting in place any of the elements
3 THE COURT: Nothing that I am aware of. I mean, 3 required for insurance fraud.
4 I have many times said in my career: It is amazing how 4 That's why one of the reasons we moved for
5 much litigation involves insurance. Just, insurance comes 5 directed verdict on the count of insurance fraud is we
6 at me left and right. 6 don't believe there has been any evidence to support that.
7 MR. AMER: I think your point goes more to a 7 Because Your Honor currently is reserving on the decision,
8 relevance question. And we did object to this witness on 8 I guess because there has been no decision yet, we
9 relevance grounds, you may recall. That was part of our 9 obviously have an obligation to put forth testimony to be
10 motion in limine. 10 able to defend ourselves.
11 THE COURT: I don't see relevance either. But 11 And the testimony is not going to be long, Your
12 the particular question is -- I am only looking at the 12 Honor. Not that that necessarily matters, but I figured I
13 second prong, you know, do I need or would any fact finder 13 would just say it. I know timing is an issue here. And
14 need his expertise. 14 as things stand, I think we are actually going to be a
15 Mr. Robert? 15 week or so ahead of schedule at the end of the day.
16 MR. ROBERT: I believe you do, Your Honor. PJI 16 THE COURT: Great, Mr. Amer.
17 1:90 that talks about when a Judge or jury requires expert 17 MR. AMER: One comment which I heard Mr. Robert
18 testimony. The government has accused the defendants of 18 say, intent. It is clear under New York Law that experts
19 having committed insurance fraud. One of the elements of 19 aren't permitted to opine on the intent to commit a penal
20 that has to do with the underwriting and what, if 20 act. And so I think the only cases we found where
21 anything, the insurance companies relied on as far as what 21 actually intent was permitted, is where there is a
22 was submitted by the defendants in terms of, A, whether it 22 psychiatrist opining.
23 was material; and two, whether they relied on it. And it 23 THE COURT: We may need a psychiatrist after all
24 goes to the intent of the defendants as to when things 24 of this.
25 were submitted to the insurance companies. This witness 25 MR. AMER: Which is clearly not relevant here,
Min-U-Script® Ny Supreme Court- Civil (6) Pages 4801 - 4804
7 of 139
FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 01/04/2024 11:10 PM INDEX NO. 452564/2022
NYSCEF DOC. NO.
NYS 1658 General v.
Attorney RECEIVED NYSCEF: 01/04/2024
Donald J. Trump November 20, 2023
Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4805 D. Miller - by Defense - Direct (Mr. Fields) Page 4807
1 Your Honor. 1 on.
2 So I think there is an additional problem if 2 So you are an expert.
3 this is supposed to go to Ms. Mouradian's intent or 3 MR. FIELDS: Thank you, your Honor.
4 Mr. Holl's intent, who is the D&O underwriter, because 4 Q Mr. Miller, from your review -- withdrawn.
5 that's just not the province of an expert witness. 5 Did you review documents from Zurich Insurance Company
6 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were 6 about events -- a surety relationship between Zurich and The
7 stenographically recorded by Senior Court Reporter Michael 7 Trump Organization?
8 Ranita.) 8 A Yes, I did.
9 9 Q And the documents that you reviewed generally, would
10 10 those have been -- what were they?
11 11 A I reviewed some depositions. I reviewed their
12 12 worksheets, the Zurich worksheets that they had underwriting
Preview
FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 01/04/2024 11:10 PM INDEX NO. 452564/2022 NYSCEF DOC. NO. 1658 RECEIVED NYSCEF: 01/04/2024 In The Matter Of: NYS Attorney General v. Donald J. Trump November 20, 2023 Ny Supreme Court- Civil Original File NYS Attorney General v Donald J. Trump.txt Min-U-Script® with Word Index 1 of 139 FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 01/04/2024 11:10 PM INDEX NO. 452564/2022 NYSCEF DOC. NO. NYS 1658 General v. Attorney RECEIVED NYSCEF: 01/04/2024 Donald J. Trump November 20, 2023 Page 4781 Proceedings Page 4783 1 SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK COUNTY OF NEW YORK: CIVIL TERM: PART 37 1 COURT OFFICER: All rise. Part 37 is now in 2 ----------------------------------------------------X 2 session. The Honorable Judge Arthur Engoron presiding. PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK, BY LETITIA 3 JAMES, ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE STATE OF NEW 3 Make sure all cell phones are on silent. YORK, 4 4 Laptops and cell phones will be permitted, but only to Plaintiff, 5 members of the press. There is absolutely no recording or 5 - against - INDEX # 6 photography of any kind allowed in the courtroom. 6 452564/2022 DONALD J. TRUMP; DONALD TRUMP JR.; ERIC TRUMP; 7 Now be seated and come to order. 7 IVANKA TRUMP; ALLEN WEISSELBERG; JEFFREY 8 THE COURT: Trying to figure out which of the McCONNEY; THE DONALD J. TRUMP REVOCABLE TRUST; 8 THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION, INC.; TRUMP ORGANIZATION 9 attorneys is going to sit in which seat is like the LLC; DJT HOLDINGS, LLC; DJT HOLDINGS MANAGING 9 MEMBER; TRUMP ENDEAVOR 12, LLC; 401 NORTH WABASH 10 Kremlinologist who was standing there on the mausoleum. VENTURE, LLC; TRUMP OLD POST OFFICE, LLC; 40 WALL 11 Defendants, would you like to call your next 10 STREET, LLC; and SEVEN SPRINGS, LLC, 11 Defendants. 12 witness? ----------------------------------------------------X 12 Bench Trial 13 MR. FIELDS: Yes, Your Honor. We called David 13 November 20, 2023 14 Miller. 60 Centre Street 14 New York, New York 10007 15 And good morning. 15 B E F O R E: THE HONORABLE ARTHUR S. ENGORON, 16 THE COURT: Good morning, Mr. Fields. 16 Justice of the Supreme Court 17 (Whereupon, the witness took the stand.) 17 18 A P P E A R A N C E S: 18 COURT OFFICER: Please remain standing. Raise 19 20 OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL 19 your right hand. OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK - LETITIA JAMES 21 Attorneys for the Plaintiff 20 D A V I D B R I A N M I L L E R, after 28 Liberty Street 21 having first been duly sworn was examined and 22 New York, NY 10005 By: KEVIN WALLACE, ESQ. 22 testified as follows: 23 COLLEEN K. FAHERTY, ESQ. 23 COURT OFFICER: Please have a seat. ANDREW AMER, ESQ. 24 ERIC HAREN, ESQ. 24 THE WITNESS: Thank you. LOUIS SOLOMON, ESQ. 25 25 COURT OFFICER: Please state your name and Proceedings Page 4782 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4784 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: (Cont'd) 1 either home or business address for the record. 2 3 CONTINENTAL PLLC 2 THE WITNESS: David Brian Miller, 119 East Attorneys for Defendants 3 Muriel Street, Orlando, Florida. 4 101 North Monroe Street, Suite 750 Tallahassee, FL 32302 4 THE COURT: David Brian Miller, I ask you to 5 By: CHRISTOPHER KISE, ESQ. LAZARO FIELDS, ESQ. 5 speak very close to the microphone, they are very 6 JESUS SUAREZ, ESQ. 6 sensitive, right into it. Loudly. 7 8 ROBERT & ROBERT, PLLC 7 And Mr. Fields, please begin. Attorneys for Defendants 8 MR. FIELDS: Thank you. 9 526 RXR Plaza Uniondale, NY 11556 9 DIRECT EXAMINATION 10 By: CLIFFORD ROBERT, ESQ. 10 BY MR. FIELDS: 11 12 11 Q Good morning. HABBA MADAIO & ASSOCIATES, LLP 13 Attorneys for Defendants 12 A Good morning. 1430 US Highway 296, Suite 240 13 Q Where did you attend college, Mr. Miller? 14 Bedminster, NJ 07921 By: ALINA HABBA, ESQ. 14 A I attended the Edinboro University for my Bachelor of 15 15 Arts; Youngstown State University for Master's in psychology; 16 17 MORIAN LAW, PLLC 16 and Ashland University for a Master's in business Attorneys for Defendants 17 administration. 18 60 East 42nd Street, Suite 4600 New York, NY 10165 18 Q After your Master's degree, were you gainfully 19 By: ARMEN MORIAN, ESQ. 20 19 employed with an insurance company? 21 20 A Yes, I was. THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION 22 Attorneys for the Defendant 21 Q What insurance company was that? 725 Fifth Avenue 22 A Eerie Insurance Group. 23 New York, NY 10022 By: ALAN GARTEN, ESQ. 23 Q Do you recall approximately what year you started 24 MICHELE PANTELOUKAS 24 with them? MICHAEL RANITA 25 Senior Court Reporters 25 A Approximately 1975. Min-U-Script® Ny Supreme Court- Civil (1) Pages 4781 - 4784 2 of 139 FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 01/04/2024 11:10 PM INDEX NO. 452564/2022 NYSCEF DOC. NO. NYS 1658 General v. Attorney RECEIVED NYSCEF: 01/04/2024 Donald J. Trump November 20, 2023 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4785 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4787 1 Q What were your jobs with Eerie Insurance Group when 1 marketing and profitability of all of the agents in that 2 you got started? 2 territory. 3 A I started out as a claims adjustor. 3 Q When you say, "sales and marketing," what does that 4 Q What does that mean? 4 mean for an insurance company? 5 A Well, I investigated and handled claims for autos; 5 A That means the agents writing lines of business that 6 homes; professional liability; bonding; all lines of business 6 the company wanted to, whether it was home, auto, professional 7 at the company that the company wrote at that time. I was an 7 liability, bonds, I was responsible for getting them to write 8 all lines claims adjustor. 8 what the company was looking for. 9 Q So as a claims adjustor, are you one of the first 9 Q And at this juncture as the branch manager, were you 10 individuals at the company to investigate whether the claim 10 a vice president at Eerie Insurance? 11 should be properly or should be paid or not? 11 A Yes, I was. 12 A Yes, I was responsible for investigating the claim, 12 Q All right. And then lastly, did you have a final 13 understanding the policy language, and determining if there was 13 role at Eerie during this period in time that you were employed 14 coverage that was applicable. 14 there? 15 Q And I think you mentioned professional liability, did 15 A Yes. After I was the branch manager I was promoted 16 you work on those types of matters as a claims adjustor? 16 to Vice President of Marketing and Branch Operations. And at 17 A Yes, I did. 17 that I was responsible for all of the marketing materials, all 18 Q What do you mean by professional liability? 18 of the lines of business and how they were presented to the 19 A Things like Directors & Officers malpractice, Errors 19 public. I was also responsible for all of the branch 20 and Omissions. 20 operations and the branch managers -- the claims operation and 21 Q After your time as a claims adjustor, did you get 21 the sales operations reported up through me. 22 promoted or put into a new role? 22 Q So in total, were you there at Eerie for 23 A Yes, I did. 23 approximately 15 or 16 years? 24 Q What role is that? 24 A Yes. 25 A I got put into subrogation recovery manager. And in 25 Q That culminated with you being the Vice President for Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4786 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4788 1 that role I reviewed claims adjustors' work; and worked with 1 Marketing and Branch Operations? 2 legal firms to collect money back that the company had paid 2 A Yes, that's correct. 3 that we were due to recover through a process called 3 Q And where did you go when you left Eerie at this 4 subrogation. 4 time? 5 Q So as a recovery subrogation manager are you, in 5 A I left and started my own independent insurance 6 effect, one step above the claims adjustor? 6 agency in Gaithersburg, Maryland. 7 A Yes. 7 Q What were some of your responsibilities when you 8 Q How about after your time as a recovery subrogation 8 started your own business? 9 manager, what was your next role like at Eerie? 9 A Well, in starting my own business I was responsible 10 A I was a district sales manager. I was recruited to 10 for doing what I had told people to do. I had to go out and 11 develop the northwest section of Ohio where I recruited and 11 sell insurance to meet different guidelines, to find insurance 12 trained all of the agents, independent agents, to represent 12 the company was looking for. 13 Eerie Insurance Group. And I was responsible for all lines of 13 Because of my past experience with the company, I was 14 business that was produced by those agents. 14 given underwriting authority of up to a million dollars. So I 15 Q And at this point were you an Associate Vice 15 had the ability to write business and bind the business and 16 President? 16 make decisions about what was acceptable to the company because 17 A I was Associate Vice President, yes. 17 of my past relationship with them. So, I was able to write 18 Q Okay. After that, did you have any role? 18 bonds, D&O, autos, home, commercial lines, garage, commercial 19 A Yes. I was promoted to Eerie Branch Manager where I 19 auto; all of the lines that Eerie wrote. And in those lines I 20 was in charge of all of the agency force agent licensing and 20 had a million dollars of binding authority before I had to get 21 marketing for the company. And in that I was responsible for 21 approval from any underwriter to accept the business. 22 the claims operations and the sales and marketing operation. 22 Q So, if I understood your testimony, because you 23 The claims operation reported to me and I reviewed the -- with 23 worked at Eerie, Eerie allowed you up to a million dollars in 24 the claims manager, difficult claims in the claims operations. 24 underwriting authority to underwrite business for them yourself 25 And then I was also responsible for the sales and 25 as a broker? Min-U-Script® Ny Supreme Court- Civil (2) Pages 4785 - 4788 3 of 139 FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 01/04/2024 11:10 PM INDEX NO. 452564/2022 NYSCEF DOC. NO. NYS 1658 General v. Attorney RECEIVED NYSCEF: 01/04/2024 Donald J. Trump November 20, 2023 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4789 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4791 1 A Yes. I had discretion to bind the business and 1 A Commercial underwriting, which included property 2 underwrite the business at that agency level. 2 casualty; Bonding; Errors and Omissions; Directors & Officers, 3 THE COURT: He asked you as a broker. Isn't it 3 that all came under the property casualty heading. Then I had 4 as an agent? 4 commercial auto and commercial trucking; garage liability; and 5 THE WITNESS: I had both licenses. I had both 5 garage dealerships; commercial processing; commercial quoting 6 licenses, and in that relationship I did have an agency 6 and commercial risk management. 7 contract with them. 7 Q As part of your roll overseeing the commercial 8 THE COURT: I seem to remember, tell me if I am 8 processing division, I believe it was that you said? 9 right or wrong, the agent represents the insurance 9 A Yes. 10 company; the broker represents the insured. 10 Q Did that involve policy language and altering policy 11 THE WITNESS: Right. That's the distinction. 11 language based on the insurance company's preference and what 12 THE COURT: So you were an agent, not a broker. 12 they wanted? 13 THE WITNESS: I had both roles. In the capacity 13 A Yes. Part of my -- part of the property casualty and 14 I was writing it was in an agent capacity. You are right, 14 part of the -- as the Chief Underwriting Officer, I was 15 Your Honor. 15 involved. When I first -- particularly when I first went back, 16 Q What type of insurance did you place with David B. 16 I changed the policies that we were doing business with. The 17 Miller insurance? 17 policies were a little bit antiquated, so we rewrote the policy 18 A All lines that Eerie offered. I had blanket 18 and I was in charge of making sure the policies were rewritten 19 authority to write all of the lines. 19 correctly. We prepared many new endorsements which targeted 20 Q Did that include excess surplus lines policies? 20 markets, and by targeting the markets, it put us in a better 21 A Eerie Insurance did have an excess surplus lines 21 competitive position. And I made sure that those endorsements 22 division, and I could write through them. But I was also 22 to the policies were done correctly. So we completely 23 licensed with other excess surplus lines carriers; typically 23 modernized the policies being offered by the commercial 24 called "wholesalers" in the industry. And I had licenses with 24 division. And I was in charge of that operation and project. 25 those various organizations. 25 Q How about Chief Underwriting Officer, what were your Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4790 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4792 1 Q Could you help us understand what excess surplus 1 responsibilities as the Chief Underwriting Officer? 2 lines means? 2 A Well, my -- my chief duty is to make sure we weren't 3 A Yes. Excess surplus lines means it is not regulated 3 making a huge mistake. But -- 4 by the state you are doing business in. Basically it allows 4 THE COURT: Mine too, by the way. 5 that company to tailormake a policy to have more discretion in 5 A I saw the difficult cases, so when it came to me -- 6 pricing, they don't have to follow their prices; they don't 6 the average, everyday business was done by the standard 7 have to follow their forms. So it gives them more latitude in 7 underwriters or maybe their manager or supervisor. And then 8 being able to customize a policy. It gives them more latitude 8 when it came to more difficult cases, I actually did the 9 to use additions or exclusions in their policy that don't have 9 physical underwriting with them, reviewed their files, looked 10 to be filed. And it allows them to price the policy according 10 at the materials, and made a decision whether the company had 11 to their judgment of what their risk may be. 11 the capacity and willingness to take on that risk. So, it was 12 Q All right. Where did you go to next after David B. 12 my final say-so what backed up the company's money and their 13 Miller insurance? 13 exposure. And so, you know, if it was a large bond or a large 14 A I went back to Eerie Insurance Group. 14 D&O or a large commercial account, very often I had the final 15 Q And in what position or capacity did you return to 15 say-so. I had the ultimate say-so. In fact, I had more 16 Eerie? 16 authority in that area than the CEO, because I was the Chief 17 A I had several capacities. My title was Senior Vice 17 Underwriting Officer. And with that comes, you get praised 18 President and Division Officer; Corporate Risk Manager; Chief 18 when you make money and you take the hit if you lose money. 19 Senior Underwriting Officer and President of Eerie Surplus 19 Thank heavens I always made money, so I didn't have 20 Agency. 20 to take the other side of the coin. 21 Q Did you have several divisions that you were 21 Q Probably a good point to talk about the hierarchy at 22 responsible for? 22 Eerie Insurance and just insurers generally. But are 23 A Yes, I had about five divisions that I was 23 underwriters generally given what is called levels of 24 responsible for. 24 authority? 25 Q What were they? 25 A Yes. Min-U-Script® Ny Supreme Court- Civil (3) Pages 4789 - 4792 4 of 139 FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 01/04/2024 11:10 PM INDEX NO. 452564/2022 NYSCEF DOC. NO. NYS 1658 General v. Attorney RECEIVED NYSCEF: 01/04/2024 Donald J. Trump November 20, 2023 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4793 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4795 1 Q Could you just explain a little bit how that works? 1 independent agency into about the 15th largest independent 2 A Yes. Well, in particular I can explain how Eerie 2 agency in the Tristate area: Maryland, Virginia, DC. I was 3 worked. We had underwriters one, two, and three. And that was 3 licensed in 42 states. We had the largest beauty school, 4 based on their experience and time at the job. 4 professional liability program in the company in 42 states. We 5 So, as an example, somebody that just came in that 5 also did commercial business all throughout the country. We 6 was learning how to underwrite, we would give level one where 6 did about 12,000 policies and personal lines, auto, home, 7 they would have a minimum amount of authority or maybe no 7 personal umbrella. 8 authority. They had to have everything checked by somebody 8 But the bulk of the business was done in the 9 above them in order to put the monies of the company at risk. 9 commercial lines: Commercial property, commercial casualty, 10 Then an underwriter two would have a little more 10 bonding, Directors Officers, all of those lines of business. 11 authority, say maybe to a half a million dollars. And they 11 And personally I did pretty much all commercial business and 12 would be allowed to underwrite risk falling below that 12 that's what I specialized in. 13 category; and if they had more exposure they had to get 13 Q And do you recall approximately when you left Inner 14 approval. 14 Harbor? 15 An underwriter three would have a million dollars, in 15 A Yes. I left Inner Harbor in about 2007. 16 some cases $2 million, where they would be allowed to accept 16 Q And where did you go next? 17 that type of risk on behalf of the company. Because by the 17 A I went to Harbor Companies, started my own consulting 18 time they got to underwriter three they generally had ten or 18 company. When you get to a certain size in the independent 19 more years experience, and so they pretty much knew what they 19 agency business, sometimes companies want to come in because 20 were doing. 20 you are a desirable candidate to get purchased. And that's 21 And above that it went to the manager and then to me. 21 what happened. Somebody wanted to purchase the company. So I 22 Q You also said that you were Eerie's Corporate Risk 22 had a non-compete, except for consulting and doing expert 23 Manager? 23 witness work. And so I started that company and developed 24 A Yes. 24 Harbor Companies, who I presently work for. 25 Q What does that mean? 25 Q You mentioned consulting and expert witness work, is Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4794 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4796 1 A Well, we did self insurance, so the risk management, 1 that what you are primarily doing now with Harbor Companies? 2 the inspection of the physical buildings, making sure that the 2 A Yes, that's correct. 3 things like the fire extinguishers, you know, the boilers, and 3 Q What type of insurance consulting are you doing now? 4 everything got processed, permitted correctly. All of that 4 A I do mostly expert witness work. But I have also 5 stuff was done by my assistants and then passed up through me. 5 done consulting work for educational programs, training 6 Also, I looked at the Worker's Compensation program 6 programs for employees, guest lecturing for training programs 7 and managed the risk of that program; worked out the pricing 7 for employees. I worked for companies like USAA, AIG, Mutual 8 terms and conditions for that program; monitored the accidents 8 companies. 9 associated with employees automobiles driver safety programs, 9 Eerie had me back several times to teach agents how I 10 carpal tunnel programs, educational programs for the betterment 10 grew an agency, because by industry standards I grew the agency 11 of employees, to keep them safe from having occupational 11 very quickly. So they all wanted to know what is your secret, 12 hazards or accidents. 12 how did you do it. Like I had a magic thing. It is hard work. 13 So that was the responsibility. And we tracked all 13 But they wanted to know what I did. So, those are the type of 14 of that stuff and managed it, because most of the things, 14 programs that I put on to educate and teach. 15 accept the Worker's Compensation, we self insured. So 15 Q And do you have a sense for approximately how many 16 everything we saved was money to the bottom line. 16 cases you have served as an expert witness? 17 Q So, approximately how long did you work at Eerie in 17 A Over 100. 18 total? 18 Q And have you testified at trial previously? 19 A Approximately 22 years. 19 A Yes. 20 Q And did you leave Eerie in approximately 2001 the 20 Q Do you get a sense for how many times you have had 21 last time? 21 your deposition taken as an expert witness? 22 A Yes. 22 A I believe at last count it was 40 plus. 23 Q Where did you go next? 23 Q What are some of the topics you have provided expert 24 A I founded Inner Harbor Insurance Group. I bought a 24 testimony in? 25 small seed company in Bethesda, Maryland and grew that 25 A Well, I have done bonding cases as an expert witness Min-U-Script® Ny Supreme Court- Civil (4) Pages 4793 - 4796 5 of 139 FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 01/04/2024 11:10 PM INDEX NO. 452564/2022 NYSCEF DOC. NO. NYS 1658 General v. Attorney RECEIVED NYSCEF: 01/04/2024 Donald J. Trump November 20, 2023 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4797 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4799 1 before. I have done some high profile D&O cases. I have done 1 A Yes. Eerie had asked me to come in. They would have 2 injury cases, bad faith cases, errors and omissions cases, 2 conferences where they would bring all of their agents in. And 3 medical malpractice cases. That's probably the bulk of what I 3 several times I taught marketing seminars to all of the agency 4 did. I did a couple lawyer malpractice. Not that that ever 4 force regarding all of the steps I used to market. And quite 5 happens. But I did a couple of lawyer malpractice cases. And 5 often they would say: Why are you willing to do that? 6 that's primarily what I do. 6 And I would say: Well, they are going to listen and 7 Q Have your engagements included representation of both 7 we will see who actually implements it. So my goal was to try 8 carriers and policyholders? 8 to get some people to go implement what I was -- what I was 9 A Yes. 9 trying to sell to them, so that they could write more business 10 Q Have you been retained by carriers to do educational 10 and overall enhance the business that they were giving to the 11 consulting? 11 company. 12 A Yes, I have. 12 Q All right. I would like to shift gears now and talk 13 Q What is educational consulting? 13 a little bit about your professional certifications or 14 A Well, I have done things from helping -- because I 14 designations. Do you hold any professional certifications or 15 had experience in developing policy language, I was asked by 15 designations? 16 one carrier to come in and look at their policies and offer 16 A I do. 17 solutions or endorsements, things to make it more competitive. 17 Q Okay. Do you hold any from what is called the 18 I have been asked to talk to independent agents about 18 Institutes? 19 how to properly market the product, how to get more business, 19 A Yes, I do. 20 how to develop your business quicker. 20 Q And what do you hold from the Institutes? 21 You know, what do companies really look for, how do I 21 A The most prestigious certification in the property 22 know that. I would teach them, say, look at the top ten 22 casualty industry is called the chartered property casualty 23 classes of business that a company is writing. And if you 23 underwriting CPCU. And I obtained that designation through ten 24 concentrate on writing those top ten classes of business you 24 examinations at the time and completed that work. And also the 25 are more likely to be successful than trying to get outlying 25 associate and risk management. It is a risk management course Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4798 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4800 1 business that they don't want to write. So when you look at a 1 also offered by the Institutes, five exams, and passed those 2 company and determine what does that company -- particular 2 exams for risk management. 3 company like to write, then you are far more likely to be 3 Q And have you held those designations for over 4 successful in writing businesses. 4 approximately 25 years or so? 5 Q Outside of educational consulting, have you taught 5 A Yes. 6 courses related to insurance? 6 Q Are you familiar with the National Alliance? 7 A Yes. I was adjunct professor at Gannon University. 7 A I am. 8 As a matter of fact, I was the first professor in that program. 8 Q And do you hold any designations from them? 9 I taught risk management and insurance development. One of the 9 A Yes. They offer a program called the Certificated 10 things that I tried to do with my students at that level was to 10 Insurance Counselor. And that's a series of five exams. And I 11 teach them how to be a good consumer. I taught them how do you 11 have held that designation for over 30 years. 12 buy car insurance. How do you buy homeowner's insurance. How 12 And I have also taught a couple of classes for the 13 do you start a business. What does a business plan look like. 13 society in -- for general liability classes. I have taught a 14 How do you develop something that makes you look good to an 14 couple of institutes for them. 15 insurance company. How do you manage your personal assets and 15 Q How about the Professional Insurance Agents 16 how do you manage your personal self to make yourself 16 Association? 17 attractive from an insurance standpoint. 17 A Yes. They offer a program called the Certified 18 My goal was to make them a better consumer and 18 Professional Insurance Agents. And I also hold that 19 educated person that could go out and make a decent decision 19 designation. And I also served on the National Board of 20 once they left my classroom. 20 Directors for the Certified Professional Insurance Agents. 21 Q Did you do any -- let me withdraw that for a second. 21 Q And lastly, the National Association of Insurance and 22 You said Gannon University; is that G-A-N-N-O-N? 22 Financial Advisors; do you hold any designations from them? 23 A That's correct. 23 A Yes. I hold the Life Underwriting Training Counsel 24 Q And did you do any guest lecturing while you were at 24 Fellow designation, which is a series of financial and life 25 Eerie? 25 insurance classes. Min-U-Script® Ny Supreme Court- Civil (5) Pages 4797 - 4800 6 of 139 FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 01/04/2024 11:10 PM INDEX NO. 452564/2022 NYSCEF DOC. NO. NYS 1658 General v. Attorney RECEIVED NYSCEF: 01/04/2024 Donald J. Trump November 20, 2023 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4801 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4803 1 Q So approximately how many years have you been working 1 clearly has a background at being able to explain what it 2 in the insurance industry, Mr. Miller? 2 is that insurance companies rely on; what it is they don't 3 A Forty plus. 3 rely on; what is material; what is not material; and how 4 MR. FIELDS: Your Honor, I tender Mr. Miller as 4 that goes into their analysis. I respectfully submit that 5 an expert in commercial insurance and surety underwriting. 5 is something outside of the ken of a normal juror or even, 6 MR. AMER: No objection, Your Honor. 6 respectfully, the Court. 7 THE COURT: I am not sure. I don't remember the 7 THE COURT: I think that was well argued, 8 exact language, but I believe that one is only to deem 8 Mr. Robert, for what that is worth. What they rely on. 9 someone an expert in areas that a normal juror or normal 9 Why wouldn't a fact witness tell me what they relied on 10 fact finder or normal Judge doesn't understand. I 10 when the Zurich witness did or didn't rely on things? Why 11 understood absolutely every phrase you used. There might 11 do I need an expert to tell me what insurance -- to me it 12 have been one point where I couldn't connect two words, I 12 is not a question of what insurance companies rely on so 13 am not sure I heard them correctly. 13 much as what this or these insurance companies relied on. 14 And Mr. Miller, I don't want you to take any 14 MR. ROBERT: When it comes to the issue of what 15 offense at any of this, but I don't see why I need an 15 the defendants did and what their intent was and what they 16 expert in what was just said. What could you explain that 16 submitted, that you need to understand from an expert how 17 I wouldn't understand just from hearing witnesses testify 17 an insurance company looks at things. You have already 18 and looking at documents? 18 heard the testimony -- and I always get the young woman's 19 But, if the plaintiff wants me to, I'll 19 name wrong, the one on the video. 20 reconsider. You said you had no objection. You didn't 20 MR. AMER: Mouradian. 21 say, yes, Judge, go ahead and do it. 21 MR. ROBERT: Mouradian, as to her view of 22 MR. AMER: There are two different questions. 22 things. And this expert is clearly able to lay a more 23 One is whether the witness has qualifications in the 23 detailed foundation as to generally what insurance 24 field; the other is whether the Court requires his 24 companies rely on themselves. 25 assistance as the finder of fact. We don't have a 25 In the prosecution's case they did not put Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4802 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4804 1 position on the second point because I don't know what 1 anybody specifically from an insurance company beyond that 2 Your Honor requires assistance in. 2 one witness who was putting in place any of the elements 3 THE COURT: Nothing that I am aware of. I mean, 3 required for insurance fraud. 4 I have many times said in my career: It is amazing how 4 That's why one of the reasons we moved for 5 much litigation involves insurance. Just, insurance comes 5 directed verdict on the count of insurance fraud is we 6 at me left and right. 6 don't believe there has been any evidence to support that. 7 MR. AMER: I think your point goes more to a 7 Because Your Honor currently is reserving on the decision, 8 relevance question. And we did object to this witness on 8 I guess because there has been no decision yet, we 9 relevance grounds, you may recall. That was part of our 9 obviously have an obligation to put forth testimony to be 10 motion in limine. 10 able to defend ourselves. 11 THE COURT: I don't see relevance either. But 11 And the testimony is not going to be long, Your 12 the particular question is -- I am only looking at the 12 Honor. Not that that necessarily matters, but I figured I 13 second prong, you know, do I need or would any fact finder 13 would just say it. I know timing is an issue here. And 14 need his expertise. 14 as things stand, I think we are actually going to be a 15 Mr. Robert? 15 week or so ahead of schedule at the end of the day. 16 MR. ROBERT: I believe you do, Your Honor. PJI 16 THE COURT: Great, Mr. Amer. 17 1:90 that talks about when a Judge or jury requires expert 17 MR. AMER: One comment which I heard Mr. Robert 18 testimony. The government has accused the defendants of 18 say, intent. It is clear under New York Law that experts 19 having committed insurance fraud. One of the elements of 19 aren't permitted to opine on the intent to commit a penal 20 that has to do with the underwriting and what, if 20 act. And so I think the only cases we found where 21 anything, the insurance companies relied on as far as what 21 actually intent was permitted, is where there is a 22 was submitted by the defendants in terms of, A, whether it 22 psychiatrist opining. 23 was material; and two, whether they relied on it. And it 23 THE COURT: We may need a psychiatrist after all 24 goes to the intent of the defendants as to when things 24 of this. 25 were submitted to the insurance companies. This witness 25 MR. AMER: Which is clearly not relevant here, Min-U-Script® Ny Supreme Court- Civil (6) Pages 4801 - 4804 7 of 139 FILED: NEW YORK COUNTY CLERK 01/04/2024 11:10 PM INDEX NO. 452564/2022 NYSCEF DOC. NO. NYS 1658 General v. Attorney RECEIVED NYSCEF: 01/04/2024 Donald J. Trump November 20, 2023 Miller - by Defendant - Direct (Fields) Page 4805 D. Miller - by Defense - Direct (Mr. Fields) Page 4807 1 Your Honor. 1 on. 2 So I think there is an additional problem if 2 So you are an expert. 3 this is supposed to go to Ms. Mouradian's intent or 3 MR. FIELDS: Thank you, your Honor. 4 Mr. Holl's intent, who is the D&O underwriter, because 4 Q Mr. Miller, from your review -- withdrawn. 5 that's just not the province of an expert witness. 5 Did you review documents from Zurich Insurance Company 6 (Whereupon, the following proceedings were 6 about events -- a surety relationship between Zurich and The 7 stenographically recorded by Senior Court Reporter Michael 7 Trump Organization? 8 Ranita.) 8 A Yes, I did. 9 9 Q And the documents that you reviewed generally, would 10 10 those have been -- what were they? 11 11 A I reviewed some depositions. I reviewed their 12 12 worksheets, the Zurich worksheets that they had underwriting